A Woman of Firsts: Margaret Heckler's Pioneering Path in Politics

Michael Herst
00:00:00

Hey, one more Thing before you go. What does it take to shatter glass ceilings in politics and redefine what's possible for women in leadership?

How can one woman's legacy continue to inspire change across generations? From champion women's rights to transforming international relations?

We're going to answer these questions and more when we have a conversation with the author of the book, A Woman of First, Margaret Hecker, political trailblazer. I'm your host, Michael Hurst. Welcome to One More Thing before you go. Our guest in this episode is Kimberly Heckler.

She's a writer and a daughter in law of Margaret Heckler. She's a member of the Authors Guild in the Library of Congress Women's History and Gender Studies group. She's a native Washingtonian.

I hope I said that right. Whose passion for reading and writing is taking her on a journey of discovery.

She's devoted more than 10 years to the creation of Margaret's biography. Today, she's going to share her personal journey of discovering Margaret's extraordinary legacy.

From her groundbreaking achievements in Congress to her pivotal role as a US Ambassador to Ireland.

We'll explore the behind the scenes world of politics, the challenges Margaret faced as trailblazing woman in a male dominated sphere, and the lasting impact of her work on women's rights, public health and the international diplomacy. It's an inspiring conversation about resilience, compassion and the power of breaking barriers. Kimberly, welcome to the show.

Kimberley Heckler
00:01:39

Thank you very much, Michael. Glad to be here.

Michael Herst
00:01:42

It's amazing what you've been able to achieve with this book.

I think that you have created some opportunities for people to be motivated, especially women to be motivated, inspired that they can achieve what they want to achieve in life.

Kimberley Heckler
00:01:59

Well, absolutely. And that's probably why I was so inspired to write the book about Margaret Heckler. She was my mother in law. She passed away in 2018.

And as a woman of firsts, it took me 35 years to observe her.

And of course, around Sunday night dinner tables and conversations with Margaret, the stories that kept coming out were they got to be overwhelming in their number and outlandish in the experiences that I thought, boy, this almost appears to be more than one person that lived a life that she did. And yet she was given away at birth by Irish immigrant parents that came through Ellis island during the Great Depression.

So that's what really when I heard over and over these stories about how this happened to her in New York City and how she was able to reach the corridors of power, I felt like, okay, enough is enough.

It's time to start Taping her and doing interviews of head of states and, and congressmen and congresswomen, chief of staffs and attorney generals, what have you. And so I accomplished 130 interviews with people from all walks of life to finish the book.

Michael Herst
00:03:29

You know, that's amazing because I think that, you know, we don't always have the opportunity to be able to document history firsthand and document history from the mouths of the people that lived it and moved it. So what an impressive opportunity for you to be able to document such a.

A career and in a very, in a significant impact, who had a significant impact, especially on women and women's rights and so many more things that go along with this. But. So, yeah, I can't wait to delve into this a little bit more. Let's talk about you a little bit. Let's do where it all began. Where'd you grow up?

Kimberley Heckler
00:04:06

Well, I grew up in Maryland, probably about 30 minutes outside of Washington, and married my husband, who was from Virginia. And I have always been a lover of writing and have been a writer. But when this project came before me, I have to say that I was impressed to do.

Felt like it was in line for something that I knew was a story that was untold. And. And she was, in fact, an American hero.

And in a world desperate for heroes, this is a story that not only women, but veterans, minorities, the dying, she touched almost every area of people's lives that have been somewhat forgotten with history.

And so in, in the times that we are here now, we do need the encouragement and inspiration of strong women and by the way, feminine women like Margaret Heckler.

Michael Herst
00:05:21

And I agree with that.

I think that we need to, especially in today's political environment, today's environment, society wise, it is unfortunately backtracking a little bit, I think. And I. And so, yeah, and it's an important message, I think, that's coming through. When you grow up, do you have brothers, sisters?

What'd you want to be when you grow up? I know that you're an author now, but what'd you want to be when you grew up?

Kimberley Heckler
00:05:49

Oh, boy, I probably wanted to do a lot of things. I remember specifically thinking that I wanted to be a physical therapist.

And my father said, well, why don't you go to a hospital and see if, you know, meet with a physical therapist? I took the elevator up. I saw a man in his robe, in a wheelchair.

I got back to the elevator, pushed down and said to my dad at dinner later that night, I am not going to be working in a hospital or as a physical therapist. So for me, I am a people person. I love people.

And that's why this project has been overwhelmingly enjoyable for me because I get to speak to people all the time, be it with someone like you, on the radio, on television, more interviewing, and a lots of exciting speaking engagements. So this has been a blessing for me beyond wonder.

Michael Herst
00:06:46

Did you, did you go to university? I know you said you want to be a physical therapist. Did you? Let me ask a question this way. Did you go to university?

Did you have aspirations to be anything other than an author at the moment?

Kimberley Heckler
00:07:03

I did go to university. I went to quite a few different colleges, starting at Columbia Union College in Washington D.C.

and then took a year and went to school over outside of London in Bracknell, Berkshire County, Newbold College, and then returned back to the States and finished out with a business degree at Pacific Union College in Angwin, California, Napa Valley. So when I, when I got back to Washington D.C.

where my family was from, and married my husband John, not long after that, it was then that I married into a political family and my father was very much into politics himself, so it was not new to me. And when I met Margaret Heckler, I felt that I was in the presence of greatness. And that's, I'll never forget when I first met her.

My husband had told me that she was at that point in her career the ambassador to Ireland.

But she was flying back to have her official port portrait hanging, a 10 foot high portrait in the HHS building of the Health and Human Services, downtown Washington D.C. would I like to meet her? And at that point when I met Margaret, I realized that she was set apart.

And not only was she a woman, she was a woman in a man's world. And she was at the top of her game and an inspiration for all women.

Michael Herst
00:08:49

So I'm assuming that's what kind of inspired you to write the book.

Had you ever thought that you wanted to be an author prior to this development, that you've learned so much about her and that you wanted to document it? Had you always aspired to be an author?

Kimberley Heckler
00:09:04

Had not. I really feel that I was led to do it. I was a realtor as well.

But my passion is truly in uncovering, doing the research and writing about Margaret Heckler.

She was so inspiring as a woman and somewhat not necessarily critical of me, but someone that was there to empower me, even to become what I, you know, as a realtor. She pushed me into that. And then at the near the end of her life, I told her that I was going to write her story.

She thought she was still going to write her own story, but she got on board with me writing this. And truly, Michael, one thing led to the other.

It was a matter of me delving in and being responsible for about 100 local boxes of hers in a store area in Arlington, Virginia. And I was the one in the family that took time during the week to rip open those boxes that had been her congressional boxes, the one that the.

Not the 250 boxes that are up at Boston College that are part of her papers there, but they're the ones that were left behind. And as I opened up those boxes, I was really trying to just clean up and throw things out.

And it was really then that I thought, this is a treasure trove of information.

And it looks like I am the one that's going to have the honor to write the story of the former congresswoman, HHS Cabinet Secretary and ambassador to Ireland, the first and only triple crown woman in politics.

Michael Herst
00:11:06

I know that she, Margaret Heckler, broke many barriers in politics. What do you think was her most significant barrier?

We, right before we started this conversation, I had mentioned to you that my mother appreciated some of her work because my mother is a single parent and grew up in the 70s.

Growing up in the 70s, she had struggles with getting credit and getting her own bank account, getting, you know, know, even an apartment for us to live in and things like that. Because she was a woman, you weren't allowed to do certain things without signatures from your. Your husband or a father, kind of a. Kind of a thing.

What. What do you think was her most significant achievement?

Kimberley Heckler
00:11:48

There are so many. But I have to say that the equal credit piece is something that also. I impressed me. I remember also being born in the mid-60s.

My mother very much was somewhat on allowance from my father that she had her pin money, if you will, and was very carefully watched after what she spent. And so the finances were fully controlled by my father.

And when Margaret got into Congress, you'll have to understand she was first a lawyer back when only 1% of American women even pursued the law.

But then when she got to be a congresswoman and still couldn't walk in a bank and get credit with a husband who had a failing business, she had to write the law in Congress.

So, you know, that that is, that, that is monumental, not just for me, but for all women to know, because women do not know the story of the trailblazers that came before her. You would have had to have been in Congress to write the law. Otherwise the banking authorities would not at all pay attention.

They said the same thing to her. And she invited the majority of the bank CEOs to her congressional office to say, you should be extending credit to women.

And the answer was always the same. Women do not pay their bills. Women are housewives.

If women are in the workforce, they'll get pregnant and then they'll leave and they won't be able to pay their bills. So we are not going to extend to women. After these conversations, she knew that she needed to work with the 37 men on the committee she was on.

It was the Banking and Currency Committee at the time where she served. She was not the only woman, Michael, which is so interesting. There were 37 men that she needed to convince.

And as she told it, it really wasn't their fault that they didn't understand why women like your mother would have needed credit because they were married. They had wives that had their credit cards.

So when they left for work, their wives would go and use their credit card at the JCPenney's or wherever she went. But in reality, single mothers, single women, divorced women, even married women that wanted the right to be able to go and buy things.

They were the primary purchasers in their homes, were strapped and dependent upon husbands and fathers. And so she wrote the law, the Equal Credit opportunity Act of 1974.

It's been implemented and was in 1975, which is making us right now at the 50th anniversary of women's right to credit in their own name.

Michael Herst
00:15:03

You know, it's almost unbelievable, unless you've lived through it or had witnessed it firsthand, to understand that women didn't have that right until 1975.

And, you know, when you live it like we did, watching our mother, you know, my mother was a widow, so watching our mother try to struggle and raise three kids up until that time period, we didn't as kids. That was never told to us. You know, it wasn't something that was shared with us that, well, you can't do that as your mother, I can't do that.

It was a situation where she just kind of plugged away and did her thing. And until we pushed through it and were able to triumph through it, basically get her kids raised, get them through high school and beyond.

But looking back and really thinking about, wow, my mom did all this as a single mother raising three kids and navigated those challenges and without that ability. And to me, it's unbelievable that that even existed up until 1975. You would think that it would have been taken care of.

I applaud Margaret for taking care of it when she did and to implement it when she did. But you would think that why didn't somebody step in here way beforehand?

Kimberley Heckler
00:16:25

Well, I'll tell you something interesting about that. What I shared about the 37 men on the committee, which Margaret got along with very well. She loved men. It's because she went to an all men's college.

She was the only woman at Boston College Law School. So she was called on just as much as these men were. Right. The professors called on her just as much. She finished top six in her class.

And that's why when she ran for Congress and was surrounded by men. Right. She was only one of 10 women in the House of Representatives.

So virtually no women were there, if you can imagine, to the point where when she was sworn into office, she heard two congressmen as she was raising her hand and they said, how did that secretary get on the floor of the House? And so she's in the Banking Committee. Right. She's a year and a half, almost two years in Congress.

She's joined the Banking and currency committee with 37 men. But, Michael, there was a woman on the committee, too, an older woman and a widow.

And the widow, the widow was named Lenore Sullivan, who said, are you ready? I do not think women deserve the.

Michael Herst
00:17:39

Right to credit in their own name, unbelievably.

Kimberley Heckler
00:17:43

And Margaret said, how could you say that? How are you getting by?

And she said in front of Margaret and 37 men, well, I've kept my dead husband's roles alive so she could use all of his credit mechanisms. And she pulled the ladder right up with her. And that was not what Margaret Heckler did.

She extended a hand to all women in more ways than you can imagine.

Michael Herst
00:18:14

Yeah, that was kind of really selfish of the individual to do at least to even admit to something like that, saying, hey, I did this and I was able to do this, but I'm not letting anybody else do this.

Kimberley Heckler
00:18:31

I think she saw all the other women. I think she saw her neighbors, people that were not congresswomen like her.

I think she saw women that were home pregnant and home with their aprons on. I think she. She was impressed with the I Love Lucy show and Leave it to Beaver, Father Knows Best.

They were all portraying that family lifestyle that had a husband and a wife, and the husband brought home the bacon. I mean, honestly, TV gave us.

Michael Herst
00:19:04

Perpetuated it. Yeah.

Kimberley Heckler
00:19:06

Yes, exactly. So anyway, it was Margaret entering a man's world and being bold enough to say, hey, women need economic equality.

And she did it at every turn on every committee. And she was the only woman in almost every committee in Congress, whether it was Veterans Affairs, Joint Economic Banking and Currency.

It was her agriculture.

Michael Herst
00:19:37

Unfortunately. And I'm grateful for that from that perspective.

I'm sure there were a lot of challenges being a woman in a male dominated political sphere such as that. Because even in today, when you watch these debates that are televised and they're televised between. I'll probably get in trouble for this statement.

But you see these old white men in here and you see them challenging like Okasha aoc Is it aoc? Yes, yes. Alexander Akasha, you see them confronting women as still in a very demeaning. It irritates me. Trust me, trust me.

I have telling you earlier, I'm an advocate for my daughters. I'm an advocate for my wife, my sister, because I grew up with a single woman, a single parent. Not a single woman. Right, A single parent.

And I understood the struggles from her perspective. I saw how she was treated. I saw where she could only get a secretary job or a waitress job or something that was not mainstream.

You couldn't go up the ladder, you couldn't be an executive, you couldn't move up the ladder. So I watched this.

So I did my best to make sure that our daughters never experienced that and to make sure they took every opportunity that they had in order to move forward. And I support my wife in that aspect as well.

It is shameful when you see what's happening even today where you see those kind of confrontations between the old white warriors. The old white, I don't even call them warriors. The old white establishment, old man establishment.

And then challenging any woman that's got a voice sitting on that chair. And you know, it is frustrating and it's irritating. How did she challenge some of those within that male dominated political sphere?

Kimberley Heckler
00:21:40

Well, it's kind of interesting because as you were talking, I was thinking back to when she earned her seat in Congress. Back then, Michael, a lot of our congresswomen came in after their husbands died, so they, they were able to take their seats.

But for Margaret, she earned her own seat. And it was hard to do because she represented Massachusetts and the Kennedys, of course, really owned Massachusetts politically.

And so her husband said to her, run as a Republican. And so she decided to leave the Democrats to the Kennedys. And she was running against Joseph Martin. Joseph W.

Martin was what you were saying about the old white man. He was a 42 year incumbent in other words, 42 years in Congress, right. He had come in in 1923, so this was 1966 and Margaret is running against him.

And he was speaker of the House twice and Margaret ran against him. He said, if you've beaten one woman, you've beaten them all.

And he absolutely had no concern for little 35 year old, attractive, strawberry blonde, 5 foot 2, powerhouse, full of energy. He's 82 years old and she beat him. And it was that chapter in the book is called Giant Killer. She absolutely slayed the giant.

And from there on, I have to say, she was empowered. She was empowered to know when to use the velvet glove and when to turn on the fire.

And I can't stress enough that the beauty of Margaret Heckler is that the men listened to her because she was not in fact, a brawl burning feminist, I would call her a feminist, but she did it in a way that people were pulled into her. She had a compassionate spirit because she was given away at birth.

So everything, every battle, every fight, she did with kindness, she did with intelligence. And she was a consensus builder. She was about collaboration.

She didn't hit it over the head of Lenore Sullivan on the Banking committee, nor the 37 men. She simply had to work through it for an entire year to get everyone on board and then we got the rights. But it did not come easy.

And women, often in Congress would be the ones standing in her way. They were the queen bees, as I say in the book.

The 11 congresswomen, her and 10 other were the 11 queen bees in 1967 that were bees of their own hive. And it took a lot for them to get there.

And they weren't necessarily going to be coming together in a group getting to know each other because they had a lot on their plate and that was it. But even Margaret started the first women's caucus in the Congress, said to the Democrats and Republicans, we must come together.

We have issues that revolve around just women. They're testing for breast cancer on men and male rats.

Please let us put our party aside and let us come together and discuss the issues that involve women, like women's equality, like putting a woman on the Supreme Court, which Margaret did with Ronald Reagan. She urged him to put the first woman on the Supreme Court and he did.

So she was working behind the scenes, whether it was lbj, Nixon, Ford, Cole Carter, and of course Ronald Reagan. Wherever she went, she said to the men, if the women are qualified in government positions, you need to interview them as well.

And they, and Nixon said, well, That's a good idea. And she said, your entire mid management is men. This needs to be changed. And he said, I'll get right on it.

And in fact, he hired thousands of women during his administration, in part because Margaret met with him in the Oval Office with three other congresswomen and urged him to make a change. And that has just catapulted through the years with her putting women up front and saying only if they are qualified. And it's the same with credit.

We are not asking for special privileges. We just want to be considered equal as men. We don't want to be the same, merely equal as human beings.

Michael Herst
00:26:58

And I think that in itself is a contribution to society as a whole.

Not just women, but men and women and kids growing up and being able to understand that everybody plays a part in society and everybody can contribute to society in a very positive way. So that, you know, what a. What a wonderful opportunity that she presented, especially to these. Was it five presidents you named off?

Kimberley Heckler
00:27:26

Yes.

Michael Herst
00:27:27

Yeah. Five different presidents that you named off, you know, and to be able to work with them, she obviously played a pivotal role in public health.

And yes, how did her leadership impact, like the AIDS epidemic and other health initiatives and things like that?

I know you talked about the checking for breast cancer in men and in rats, you know, because people don't even think about that up until it was brought forth that men can also get breast cancer. And that is something that needs to be addressed from that perspective.

But what would you say she contributed more in addition to that with the health.

Kimberley Heckler
00:28:08

So there were three major initiatives that she. She had to deal with. When she came in as HHS secretary in 1983, she handled the third largest budget in the world at that point.

The two other larger budgets was the entire federal budget, the entire budget of the Soviet Union, and then the budget that Margaret was responsible for, Health and Human services, which at that point had Social Security under it, Medicaid, Medicare, the cdc, NIH, and so on and so forth. So she had to handle anything in the nation that had to do with health. She said it was the hardest job in Washington.

And indeed, I believe that it is. When she came in and Ronald Reagan appointed her to that position, she would be one of the first women in his cabinet.

And AIDS was immediately on her watch. The Reagan administration was quiet over the issue that there was a pandemic quietly happening that was fatal. If you got aids, you died.

And Margaret was very concerned for the victims, how they were treated and keeping our blood supply safe. And so she made it the number one health issue in America.

There was hysteria going on for sure in the country, and people were not going to public pools. Some of them weren't sending their kids to school. They stopped using water fountains. There was an 800 hotline that Margaret installed at HHS.

People were calling constantly, are we going to do. What are we going to do? We don't want to fly on planes. So we have almost experienced some similarity to that with the COVID pandemic.

And so this one, though, was absolutely fatal. And to be a woman in charge of that massive department with 350 different departments under her and 145,000 employees, she had a lot to take care of.

But she made it the number one health issue, which meant that she was able to go back to Ed Meese, who was a counselor to the president at that time in the presidential cabinet requesting more funding. And she would visit the AIDS patients, touch their hands and hug them when people thought that if you did that, you would die.

So she really, really risked a lot without even knowing everything to put the country at ease.

And then shortly after that, it was brought to her attention by five black professors, medical professors, that were running the medical black hospitals. And they said that the federal government was not giving them any help.

And so African Americans and all minorities were not understanding why they were dying up to eight years earlier than Caucasians.

And it was because schools like Emory, you know, medical, they got our money from the federal government, but the predominantly black medical schools were not, and therefore blacks were dying much earlier. And so when Margaret talked to her undersecretary, the answer was always the same. This has been happening since the beginning of record keeping.

Don't open that can of worms. And she said, as the Secretary of health, I'm opening it wide open because every American should have the same length of life.

So she closed the gap of death by instituting, through nih, a nine volume set on why minorities were dying earlier and how we could lessen that and give all Americans the same length of life. So it is that gap is clear closing because of the heckler report.

Michael Herst
00:32:41

That's very cool, actually. What a brilliant contribution to society.

You know, I grew up in that era as well, and understanding it not only affected men, but affected women as well and affected families.

And the situation is that she was able to at least implement some change and the change in a positive direction to be able to help control us and get us to where we are today. So you sound. Margaret was an amazing contribution to society as a whole.

Kimberley Heckler
00:33:22

She really Was. She just didn't stop. I mean, her last thing at HHS is hospice.

They were trying to get it to pass in the Congress to have it be a benefit under Medicare, but it was not able to come into the Reagan administration. David Stockman, who was head of Office of Management and Budget, said, we are not going to fund this thing. I'm sorry.

We have just changed the whole program at hospitals where if you were deemed to be terminally ill, the federal government was sending you home to die. And Margaret said, that is not happening on my watch. And they said, well, we're spending too much on Medicare to leave the dying.

Back in the 80s, were able to stay in the hospitals for months. And then when they died. Right. The sheet came over the bed. Right. And then they removed the bed.

But in the Reagan administration, they said they really should go home to their families, and this should not be something picked up by the federal government. And Margaret said, absolutely not. Death with dignity. We will get Medicare. We will get hospice under the Medicare benefit.

And through her staff, they wrote from scratch, the first federalized hospice program in America.

Michael Herst
00:34:38

Yeah, that's amazing.

And as an individual that has seen death both personally and professionally in so many instances, I think that death with dignity is a better way to go in regard to losing someone and not having the opportunity to spend the time that you need to spend with them before they pass and to give that memory, lasting memory. So, you know, that in itself, that bill affects people from a deep personal perspective, you know, not just well.

Kimberley Heckler
00:35:09

And then to know that the federal government is going to help you with that bill from hospice, that it was before, when hospice was just in 12 or 14 places around the country. You know, there were places that you would pay out to take your loved one if you could afford it.

But to have it be under Medicare as a benefit to all Americans that are under Medicare. Now we're talking right now, all of a sudden, that is a substantial savings as your loved one is dying.

Michael Herst
00:35:40

Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I. And I appreciate it. I say from a personal perspective, in regard to experiencing that firsthand, and it is a.

It's an extremely heartfelt opportunity to spend time with your. With your loved ones before they leave. So. Yes. Thank you. Thank you again, Margaret.

I know we have another little connection only because I have Irish great, great, great grandparents, and she was an ambassador to Ireland you mentioned earlier in the conversation. And I know that she did some things to revitalize the Irish economy. And. But what do you think?

What do you think her most lasting Impression or contribution to that role would be she was an ambassador to Ireland. Was this, forgive me for this. Was this, this was after her congressional stint or was.

Kimberley Heckler
00:36:41

Was. It was 16 years in Congress to start, and then two and a half years as HHS secretary. And her last stint was to be the ambassador to Ireland.

And it was kind of interesting because actually when Ronald Reagan was president and she was in the cabinet, she encouraged him, you should visit Ireland. And he said, well, I will do that. And she said, very few presidents have gone over there.

So before he went, you can imagine that the State Department went to the residence that the Irish ambassador lives in and fully outfitted it with new chintz curtains and all new furniture and beautiful new rugs and the most beautiful Irish art. And then he came and visited.

And it wasn't long after that that Margaret was appointed to live in that great mansion, Deerfield, that had just been newly dug.

So she shows up in Deerfield in a, I think about an 18,000 square foot mansion that was designed after the White House, a beautiful white mansion in Phoenix park in Dublin. And sure enough, the Irish graduating from college, the Irish students were leaving the country. There were no jobs in Ireland.

And this came to come to her attention.

And she visited a lot of the companies and to some of the CEOs and presidents of these Irish corporations, she said, why are you turning away the Irish? These are people that speak five languages. I mean, when you're in Ireland, you speak all the European languages. They're highly educated.

And a lot of these hiring partners said, we had no idea that this was happening, that we actually were turning away our own. And she said, please change that immediately.

But the biggest thing that she did is encourage Irish American businesses to come over and open shop in Ireland. Boeing, for one, set up over there. She definitely had a hand in Intel, Microsoft, Anheuser Busch.

These are all very, very big American companies that she hosted, had parties for dinners, and it was amazing. Diplomacy, act of diplomacy for her.

Coming from Irish immigrant parents and returning as the most powerful person in Ireland, as the ambassador and to bring over businesses. Her own father had to flee from the effects of the potato famine.

He came to America because of no job opportunities and doggone it, if she wasn't going to bring them over. So she was not your regular ambassador. She was busy around the clock, working every day and entertaining heads of state, kings, princes.

It's just, it's amazing who came to her house. She opened it up like a salon where Seamus Henney and famous poets and four star generals would come.

Sandra Day O'Connor, of course, came and visited her. They were very good friends. It was a tremendous opportunity for her to help Ireland economically.

Michael Herst
00:40:18

It's coming from a individual from Irish immigrant Paris that gave her away.

I think that the achievement of being able to be the ambassador to Ireland and open those doors again for other individuals and for American companies to come in must have been like exhilarating for her to be able to satisfy this must have been a contribution.

Her family struggles, what her parents had gone through and where she achieved her height as an ambassador in Ireland must have been a very like a personal. A victory for her in some form or another because of where she had.

Kimberley Heckler
00:41:02

Come from, I'm guessing absolutely the case. She fell in love with the Irish people. And not only that, many of her father and mother's relatives were there.

And so they got to come over to the residence and they invited her for the first time in her life. She was an only child that was given away at birth.

She went to weddings and christenings and they were country weddings where you walk down the country road. And so she held babies and just experienced the type of thing that she might not have ever experienced had she not been in that role.

Michael Herst
00:41:45

And what's interesting about this is the fact that, do you remember in history where there were Irish slavery here in the United States? And that they had ads in the newspaper. I've only learned this from my own genealogy.

They had to the newspaper that said maids wanted or housekeepers wanted, Irish need not apply.

Kimberley Heckler
00:42:08

Well, her mother had that and I have that in my book. No Irish need apply. Protestants only. So they even, they even were discriminatory toward the Catholics.

And then here was Margaret's mother, an upstairs maid in New York City. And Margaret becomes the ambassador to Ireland with her own help. People that surrounded her with love and really God.

It truly is a God inspired story of a woman that that followed a directed path. And her most famous quote of all is, I've always been in touch with my destiny.

She always knew that there was more for her to do and she never stopped. And her father that gave her away nicknamed her the Great Peggy, which is an Irish nickname for Margaret.

And she said he projected that name on me even though I didn't get to see him often. He did show up in her life from time to time and he would call her the Great Peggy. And she lived up to it.

Michael Herst
00:43:21

That's amazing.

What lessons, with that in mind, what lessons do you think in her life and career are most relevant for women in Politics today that would make them their version of the great Peggy.

Kimberley Heckler
00:43:35

I think it's no matter where you've come from, whether you had a struggle as a child. Hers was fragile. She had a terrible wound of abandonment. That no matter where you've come from, that you in fact can fulfill your own destiny.

That there is a destiny that waits for you. We all have a legacy. Some people don't think in the early parts of their life that there is a legacy that will outlive them.

And if we think about that, each step that you take goes toward your legacy and your destiny in this world. For Margaret, it happened to be playing a piano as a young child. It was like learning a second language. It made her smarter.

It was all girl Catholic school, school that she earned on scholarship alone. She came from, you know, a boarding house, no money. It was becoming a lawyer and looking into something that women didn't do at that moment.

I don't know what made her aspire to be it, except that she did babysit at a judge's home that had law books that she took down. And she said, I will one day become a lawyer. And there just going toward her dreams as a lawyer.

After she finished top in her class, no law firm in Boston would hire her. We will never hire a female attorney. So she had to reach deep within her to move to the next step. And I think that's what women need to do.

We are still women in a man's world. In a lot of ways, women still have those barriers.

But I would say that because of people like Margaret Heckler, there's a lot few barriers that they have to work with. And with the right mental attitude, they can really accomplish. Anyone can accomplish whatever they want to if they set their mind to it.

Michael Herst
00:45:46

I agree with that.

I think it's great advice in regard to anyone that wants, especially women who want to move their lives forward in a positive way and affect change in society and how we view women. Look, if mothers. I love my mother, obviously mothers are important. Daughters are important, sisters are important. And not only in that environment.

They're important to society as a whole.

And I think that, you know, opportunities for individuals to be able to grow within society to their best selves is what's needed in today society and culture. And unfortunately, I see.

Unfortunately, I had to emphasize that I see some backtracking in certain areas that we really need to kind of hopefully overcome again. We'll see. We'll see. Anyway, talk about how to get your book a Women of First.

Kimberley Heckler
00:46:46

Yes, thank you so the book has just been has just come out two weeks ago, February 18th, and it's certainly available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. And I think it is an inspiring story, an encouraging story.

At a time where we are desperate for heroes, here is someone that we can learn from that'll help us catapult our own lives.

Someone that faced major obstacles but persevered, someone that had a disposition of the heart and one that recognized the inherent dignity and moral equality of all people.

Michael Herst
00:47:27

And you can find that also on your website.

Kimberley Heckler
00:47:31

Yes, @kimberlyhechler.com and I'll make sure that's.

Michael Herst
00:47:35

All in the show notes so that people have an easy way to like click on it and go right to it. You can also be found on Instagram and I think LinkedIn and Instagram. You can see here on the screen, Kim Heckler, IM Heckler.

So obviously we'll hope people can come and visit there as well. This has been an amazing opportunity for us to get to know you a little better.

Kimberley Heckler
00:47:59

It's so thank you, Michael.

Michael Herst
00:48:02

Thank you for being on the show and thank you for sharing your journey.

I'm happy that you were able to bring this individual, this amazing individual, let me correct myself, who contributed to the well being of women all over the world, not just here. I make sure my daughters get to know this a little bit better.

And you know, and my wife as well is looking forward to this conversation that we're having right now. So thank you for being here.

Kimberley Heckler
00:48:32

Well, thank you so much for having me. It was a real pleasure.

Michael Herst
00:48:36

This is one more thing before you go. So before we go, one last question.

If Margaret were alive today, what advice do you think she would give to the next generation of leaders, especially women leaders?

Kimberley Heckler
00:48:52

I think she would say don't concentrate on what you think is pulling you down. Just keep moving forward. And remember that women have a special place in society that only they can fill.

Whether they want to be at home or they want to work out professionally, they have a responsibility to their family first and to community and to the professional world. But the femininity that a woman gives to the world is very unique and she was a very big proponent of that. So she would just say onward and upwards.

Michael Herst
00:49:40

Onward and upwards is a great, great words of wisdom, are great words of wisdom. So again, Kimberly, thank you very much for being on the show. I really appreciate you.

I will make sure that everything's in the show notes for people to access your book and to get to where they need to be.

Kimberley Heckler
00:49:58

Thank you very much, Michael.

Michael Herst
00:50:00

One more thing before you all go. Be sure to like subscribe and follow. You'll find everything in the show notes. As I just said, looking forward to the next conversation.

In the meantime, have a great day, have a great week, and thank you for being part of the One More Thing Before We Go community.

Kimberley Heckler
00:50:16

Thanks for listening to this episode of One More Thing before youe Go. Check out our website at before you Go podcast. Com.

You can find us as well as subscribe to the program and rate us on your favorite podcast listening platform.