Rethinking Humanity: How Nature's Rules Shape Our Existence

Anne Riley
00:00:00

You know, nature, like I said, there's this one rule. Everybody gets to do what they want, but they can't harm each other. But how they do that is what's really fascinating.

Nature has developed very specific rules about how cells coexist in a body.

Michael Herst
00:00:16

Hey, one more thing before you go. What if we could understand our place in the world but through the lens of nature itself? Intriguing, isn't it?

In this episode, we'll dive into the groundbreaking theory exploring how humans into the world and how we've broken many of nature's survival rules.

My guest Ann Riley's work provides a roadmap for rethinking humanity's role on Earth, leveraging nature's guidance to foster connection and collaboration.

Join us as we discuss the profound links between nature and humanity and discover how Ann's insights can help us build a better, more connected world. So stay tuned. I'm your host, Michael Herst. Welcome to One more Thing before you go.

Ann, born in Richland, Washington, and the 11th of 12 children, grew up in Naperville, Illinois. A bone scholar and graduate from Illinois State University with a degree in accounting, and later earned her MBA from Port Portland State University.

She balanced family life with successful careers in technology, teaching, and finance before retiring in 2011. Inspired by Michael Rothschild's Bionomics, Ann developed the Ideas Fair, which delves into the parallels between humans and ecological systems.

Her compelling ideas are articulated in her novel Dina Nature's Case for Democracy and her upcoming nonfiction book, the Human Earth's Newest Ecosystem. I'm excited for this conversation, so let's unravel the mysteries of the human ecosystem together. Welcome to the show, Anne.

Anne Riley
00:02:03

Thank you so much. It's a delight to be here.

Michael Herst
00:02:06

An amazing journey that you've had.

I mean, it's very diverse, very interesting the way you've evolved in, from what you came from, from accounting and business to where you're at today. Because your education is primarily in accounting and business and so forth like that, so.

Anne Riley
00:02:25

Yeah, and economics.

Michael Herst
00:02:26

Yeah, and economics. Exactly.

Anne Riley
00:02:28

Yeah, Right.

Michael Herst
00:02:30

I'm excited. What brought you into this world of human ecological systems?

Anne Riley
00:02:35

Well, actually, I. When I was about 10 years old, I learned about evolution.

And I can remember sitting in the classroom, sitting at my desk, thinking that somehow we had to fit in the world, but we were so different. And I wanted to know how we fit. And from that time on, I've been thinking about that. I think, you know, how it. Things simmer in you underneath.

And no matter where I went in school and I did, you know, I did well in school I did, you know, I was one of those kids who has always been a mile wide and an inch deep. I was a valedictorian because I could do well in every class, but I wasn't great at any class, you know what I mean?

And that's how I work, that's how my, my mind works, is to, is to take things from different areas and pattern them together. So, you know, when I got to accounting and economics, I understood that accounting is just a new language.

It's a new language about how you put finances and dollar, you know, in, in sort of dollar worlds dollar words into some sensible arrangements so that people can understand what your company's about. The problem is, is you leave out a lot of the costs that are involved in a business like pollution or damage to customers or something like that.

So even though I was really good at accounting, I was like, I'm not really convinced that this is a really good place to be for me. And so I just kept reading. I read Charles Darwin, I read a lot of science, Stephen Jay Gould, just a lot of natural science.

And I finally kind of figured it out.

I mean, just Michael Rothschild's book was really eye opening to me in that he decided that you could marry economic systems and they could mirror and they had the same structure as life systems. So if that was the case, then if a human economic system worked that way, then humans have to work that way.

And I sort of went off of that assumption and I was able to work my way through and build this.

Michael Herst
00:04:41

Idea sphere theory, which it's amazing. I mean, I think that just the aspect. We all want to know why we're here, right?

And you asked this question in your book, which I find very intriguing because we grew up as a child asking this question, why is the sky blue? Why is this? Why is that? Why can't I put a paperclip in the plug that's in the wall? There's a hole there. I want to put this paper clip.

Anne Riley
00:05:06

Oh, you can. It's just the consequences are really bad.

Michael Herst
00:05:09

Exactly. So we all ask that question.

And I think as we grow up as adult and we had a little conversation right before we started and you know, we all ask, why are we here on Earth? What's my purpose? Why am I here?

Anne Riley
00:05:22

Right.

Michael Herst
00:05:24

So coming from that perspective, what. Why do you approach this idea sphere from that perspective?

Anne Riley
00:05:33

Well, it became very clear as I grew up that humans, we had a lot of theories, but they all, they conflict. I mean, you look at all kinds of religions and they all Sort of conflict with each other and all.

If you, if you read any kind of philosophy, there's all these different viewpoints. And I thought I gotta start where something is true. And the only thing that is true in the world is the nature of nature.

You know, animals and plants and how they live in the world are things that have evolved for billions of years. And so my assumption was I should start there because they're true. They are. You know, if you look at how evolution occurs, things just change.

They, you know, cells run into each other and they make multicellular animals. Those multicellular, they keep growing into organs and they create bodies.

And, and these things are things that have been tried and tested by the environment and by many years of existence. So I had to start there. So my first assumption was how does life work? If you just take humans out of the equation, how does life work?

So I studied that in the first part of my book studies what's the nature of life and how do we survive, you know, or how do these, these beings survive? And then once I got that kind of squared away, I looked at humans.

And of course, humans work exactly the same way, but we have two different skills or abilities that make us do the same things but in a different way. And one is we can think, we can create ideas that don't exist in reality but exist in our minds.

And second, we can use those ideas to create physical representations of them outside our body. We are the first beings that can create information, put it outside of our bodies. The only beings that can do that, like birds can build a nest.

You know, bees can build a hive, but a bee can't build a three layer, you know, concrete structure that several generations of bees can live in. They can't do that. They're, they're limited by the DNA instructions that they've evolved to do. But humans, we don't have that restriction.

We can think up and we can build a three story concrete house with that can house families for generations. We can do that. And so this big difference has made us break the rules when it comes to how we live as communities.

Michael Herst
00:08:10

In particular, I like, I mean, the way that you presented that, I think that we have to live in conjunction with nature.

And I think that, you know, obviously we need the trees and we need the birds, that we need the bees, we need the animals, we need the trees and we need the grass. We need everything. It all works together. We all work in conjunction with each other.

So I respect Mother Nature, I respect everything that is put in there.

Anne Riley
00:08:38

Yes, but in Our history, you know, we have.

I can remember reading about the concepts of manifest destiny and that nature was our enemy because at some point in our history, nature was a big force, you know, that could kill people. Right. But now, yes, it still is, but we have much more capability of mastering our environment to make it easier for us to live.

But right now, we're going the other direction, and now we're actually damaging the environment that we live on. It's like we've run this entire continuum, this entire spectrum, and that's what humans can do.

They can create an idea, and that idea can drive their actions.

And then all of a sudden, the consequences of those actions show up, and we have to create a new idea, but the old one's still in there, you know, and people. People struggle with change because they're having to throw one old idea out and put in a new one. And sometimes they just don't want to.

Michael Herst
00:09:39

Yeah, I agree with that. I think that, you know, we. In your book, I think you say.

I like how you say that humans have manipulated the Earth and their natural resources in, like, an amazing, inventive way. But what you just said a second ago, I think we've also ravaged it to a point that now we're feeling the ramifications.

Anne Riley
00:10:03

Right.

Michael Herst
00:10:04

Again, a point to what you just said, that we're feeling the ramifications of the consequences of the actions. The wild hurricanes, the immense hurricanes, and the mass flooding that floods this morning. Saw it this morning in Spain.

Anne Riley
00:10:21

Right. I did see that. Just unbelievable flooding, unbelievable stuff.

Michael Herst
00:10:26

And unfortunately, we as humans, I think that sometimes we look at that and then denial still sets in, and we still have people that are saying, well, that's not. You know, that's just life cycle or something along that line. We won't go into the politics of all that, but.

Anne Riley
00:10:40

Right, exactly.

Michael Herst
00:10:41

But we as human beings, we have a choice to either recognize it or, you know, and do something about it, or we have a choice just to kind of let it go and understand that there's consequences for actions in anything that we do.

Anne Riley
00:10:56

Right. Well, and this is the thing about humans.

You know, animals are born with all of their instructions in place, and they can only sort of do what their DNA instructs them to do.

The bird can build a nest because it has a long evolution of DNA instructions that say, hey, build a nest because this is a better way for you to survive. But humans, when we've created the ideasphere, what I call the ideasphere is the sum total of our ideas and the inventions we make from those ideas.

But guess what? We're born with absolutely zero ideas. Nothing. So everything that we, that we get in the ideas fair, we have to learn from someone else.

And we don't have to. There's no check in nature. The check is on. Boy, if you're, if your actions don't fit in the environment, you're dead.

But here we can have a bad idea that can live for thousands of years. And we. It's not whether an idea is good or bad. It's whether an idea is accepted by others.

So as long as an idea is accepted, people can take that and run with it, you know, and some ideas are really great. Like we were able to speak, and then we were able to.

The extension of that is to write, and then to write books and then to make radio and make television. Those are all amazing inventions that humans, that came from human ideas.

But there are also some really bad ones, like war and the fact that it's okay to subjugate other people and enslave them or, you know, make them, you know, kill them and take their stuff. And those are, those are ideas that have also been accepted. So what I would say is humans are amazing and they're dangerous.

And we don't have a natural check like nature does. We as humans have to use our ideas to create the natural checks and balances that we would have in order to coexist.

Michael Herst
00:12:51

That's an excellent way of putting that. I think we should all have check. That's why you have laws in place, right?

Anne Riley
00:12:57

That's what laws are, are the rules of our coexistence.

Michael Herst
00:13:01

These are societal rules to say, you can't do this or you can't do this. There's consequences for your actions, right?

But then in some situations, I think we as human beings, depending upon what level of power that you're in, can choose to not follow those rules or.

Anne Riley
00:13:19

Absolutely. And that's our history.

Michael Herst
00:13:21

And that's our history.

Anne Riley
00:13:21

Our history is that most, most, most of the leaders of our history have not followed the rules of nature. Because the rules of nature, you can, you can sum it up in one sentence. You get to do what you want, but you can't harm anybody else.

Well, that's not how leadership works, you know, and, and you know, if you look at your body, if your body is made of 35 trillion cells, that's a lot of cells, right? And they all work together to keep you alive and all the other cells alive. And they do that using your brain and your neural system.

And your brain and neural system coordinate those cells and they make sure that you could. All those cells get to do their jobs, but they can't hurt each other. Well, in society, the equivalent of coordination is government. Right.

That is the role of government is to make sure that we coordinate how we coexist together. That should be the rule. And democracies are designed to make sure that common good is elevated to the highest level.

That's what our constitution does. It says, hey, for the people, for domestic tranquility, provide for the general welfare. You know, those are. The constitution is our goal.

And then the rules are the laws we make. But sometimes we just, you know, don't do that very well.

And there's other, there are other types of governments like communism, which is for the good of the state. Well, if you're for the good of the state, the people our cells under, underneath we are, you know, we are dispensable. And that is not always a good.

That just doesn't follow nature's path.

Michael Herst
00:15:07

It does not.

Which I think, you know, if you don't mind, I think we can we talk a little bit about how human systems parallel ecological systems according to this theory. Because I think what, what you just kind of talked about kind of segues into, into, into that theory.

Anne Riley
00:15:23

Right, right, right. And this was my big breakthrough was, you know, I, I studied and it was pretty clear how natural systems work.

If you look at the world or as life forms in concentric circles, at the core of life is DNA. DNA is a set of instructions that allow you to survive. They're housed. The whole DNA is a genome and it's all housed inside a cell.

And the cell is interesting. It's made up of the DNA that gives the instructions, but all the parts of the cell implement those instructions, right.

They're like, okay, I'm going to go make the proteins and I'm going to give you the energy and I'm going to do all these things and I'm going to, you know, bring more resources in and excrete the bad stuff. That's what the cell does. It's a fully functional living being by itself.

But in evolution, those cells have evolved to make tissues and organs and bodies. And that is a very, it's like a concentric circle. DNA, cell, body would be the three main things.

Well, humans and our ideas for work exactly the same way. At the start, at the core, instead of DNA, we have ideas.

And how we get resources is our ideas are all the sum total of our ideas are enclosed in our mind. And then our bodies put those resource, those ideas into action. My using my mind and my experience, I wrote a book.

You know, somebody else builds a building, somebody else works together to create a spaceship, somebody makes a dam. You know, those are things that people can do. So, and then if you look outside of a person, the.

When we join together to implement a goal, we create an institution. And it can be any kind of institution. It can be a religious institution, it can be a book club, it can be a business.

But anytime people join together to create or to fulfill a goal, that's an institution. And then above that is our society. Those are the people. We all coexist together and we live as a society. And those are the same.

It's the exact same structure. But we start with ideas rather than DNA. And the difference between that is that DNA are instructions that you have to follow.

And ideas are our own things that we have to create to live. We don't start with any ideas. We have no goals. When we start, we are born with no ideas, no goals, no rules, no nothing.

And the only thing we get is from other people who put those into us.

And a lot of times what happens, especially with me and the 11th of 12 children, a lot of ideas came in from my older brothers and sisters before I knew what was going on, you know, and then I have. The world that I see and understand is based on all of this stuff that comes in to me.

Michael Herst
00:18:21

And I think we all take that perception for whether you're a single. A single child in a household or whether or not you have 12, you know, 10 or 12. That's a lot of kids.

Anne Riley
00:18:32

I know it. And my mom is 102. She's amazing. Holy smokes. Yeah, she's a really, really. And sharp as a tack. I can't get away with anything. Still.

Michael Herst
00:18:41

That's cool. That's very cool. I had nine uncles and aunts.

Anne Riley
00:18:47

Oh, yeah. So you're you and you're one generation down from the big family. Oh, you got the stories then.

Michael Herst
00:18:53

Exactly. So we have 50, 60 cousins kind of a thing we get everybody get together. So every time we get to a family, we're to loft side for a second.

My wife is a single. She's one single kid, so she's not used to having all that around. First family reunion she showed up to, she could not believe she had anxiety.

She was going, I can't believe all these people. Like, yeah, yeah, this is nothing.

Anne Riley
00:19:17

Well, and that's. Yeah. And that just shows you that because we're born with no ideas. What we get is how we see the world and we get such different views of things.

And that's why, you know, being widely read and widely experienced is so helpful to be able to get a more holistic view of life. Because nature is holistic. Nature doesn't silo itself. Nature is general. And they don't.

Nature doesn't say, oh I'm an accountant or I'm an artist or I'm a scientist. No, no, no, no. Nature's everything.

Michael Herst
00:19:52

I agree with that 100%. Do you, do you believe humans have broken the rule, the like the survival rules honed by our non human predecessors?

You mentioned earlier about animals have it built in within themselves.

Anne Riley
00:20:07

Right.

Michael Herst
00:20:08

And that we, we basically have a choice.

Anne Riley
00:20:12

Yes, we have broken those rules. Yeah. And here's what I would say is, you know, nature, like I said, there's this one rule.

You know, everybody gets to do what they want, but they can't harm each other. But what, how they do that is what's really fascinating. Nature has developed very specific rules about how, how cells coexist in a body.

One thing is they protect the brain from a lot of nonsense. They have constant communication to and from the brain.

But the brain is literally physically separate from and the neural system physically separate from any of the decisions that they might make. A brain might say, you know, you guys, you cells, I see a cancer cell down there, I'm going to kill you.

And if the detritus comes up, it's not going to hit the brain because the brain's protected. So that's one thing they do. The second is a body nourishes every part of its system.

It makes sure that every cell gets what they need to survive to make the community of cells and the body survive. Well, nourishment is equivalent to taxation in our societies. And we do the, we don't do taxation the same way nature does.

And in fact we do it in a way that just wouldn't work in nature.

You know, income tax is like the wrong way to approach taxation and what taxation does, and I should say in nature, this nourishment we have is every cell gets what they need. If for some reason the body gets more than they need, every cell gets more.

And if you have really a lot of stuff, then they'll start storing, you know, start storing excess energy in places like your stomach and your heart and your, you know, your hips. For me, that's a good place. But the problem with that is in nature they don't really get to that point.

What they do is as soon as they get a lot of resources, they make a new generation of babies. And the reason they do that is because that continues the DNA line and that's what survival is about.

But in equivalent, in the ideasphere is if we got a lot of resources, we would make more ideas, we would make more products, we would read more books, we would do whatever it is that we're producing. We would use those to extend our ideas. Instead, we hoard the resources as an end in its own.

And what you're doing is you're slowing down the system in which ideas flow because if resources are concentrated, the power is concentrated and so are the choices that people have. So nature doesn't do that. They just don't.

Michael Herst
00:22:59

Do you think we have a disconnect from nature?

Anne Riley
00:23:04

I think, I think we do because we do things differently. I think nature has all these answers that we know and we haven't seen them yet.

I've been really surprised when I, when I kind of developed this theory, it was like, but all this data, all this information is here. We just haven't put it together. And we haven't put it together because we have old ideas.

When we started as humans, we didn't know about cells, we didn't know about, you know, how things work together. We didn't know about DNA till maybe 7,500 years ago. So how could we know? I think humans are at the cusp of a new ecosystem, doing the best they can.

But now I think we're smart enough to know and put these ideas together.

And I think we have to go back and look at these rule rules and see how we've broken it and whether they, by applying these, nature's rules, adjusted for human thought and choice. But can we apply those and make better societies? And my view is yes, I think we can.

And I want people to read the book to get a sense of, oh, this is how the world could work if we did it this way.

Michael Herst
00:24:16

Well, and I agree with that. I think that our mental and emotional well being relies on our connection with the nature and the universe in that regard.

You know, I wholeheartedly believe in that through my journey and I've talked about it on this show quite a bit. I believe that my connection to nature and the universe has allowed me to be able to heal the way that I've healed, you know, in.

Even when you go back and reflect on Covid, obviously Covid was a very, very bad disease and affliction, not necessarily a disease, but a very, very Bad situation. And. But there were some positives that came out of it.

And I think that, you know, the positives were that the humankind took a pause on life and reflected on what's important and what's not important and reflected on. Exactly. I think that it gave us, you know, everybody said, well, we got to get back to normal. Get back to normal.

And when you, when you look at that, my wife and I, in our own situation, you could see what one section of society sees as get back to normal was getting up at 4 in the morning, getting ready for work and driving through hours worth of traffic and yelling and angry and, you know, road rage and everything that's going on around you. Getting into your work, sitting behind in a cubicle along with an office full of other people and then, and then, you know, bust your butt.

And then by the time you, you get off eight hours later, you spend an hour fighting traffic to get home and you're exhausted, you know, and then by the time you get a little dinner, you're falling asleep on the couch or whatever the case may be, and you get back up and start all over again in the morning.

Anne Riley
00:25:55

Yep. Whereas I did that for many years. And it completely dissatisfying.

Michael Herst
00:26:00

Completely dissatisfying.

Anne Riley
00:26:01

Even though I like the job, I love the job, I didn't like my life.

Michael Herst
00:26:05

Exactly. And then Covid came around. My wife, you know, they did a lot of work from home. Luckily, from where she works, she worked for the state.

The state decided, well, we're going to let people work from home. They created that environment.

And then that gave us, instead of her out on the road for an hour to work in a humid amount of traffic, us worrying about her on the road because there's accidents everywhere kind of a situation.

Anne Riley
00:26:32

Arizona, I've been in Arizona. Traffic. Yes. These people.

Michael Herst
00:26:36

As a traffic cop, this place is really bad.

Anne Riley
00:26:40

Yeah.

Michael Herst
00:26:41

We go out on the back patio in the morning. You can't see me pointing to the back patio.

Anne Riley
00:26:47

Okay, the back patio.

Michael Herst
00:26:50

You know, have a cup of tea, watch the sunrise and sit out there with the dog and watch the sun come up and watch the birds and the bees and the, you know, the hummingbirds and the bees and everything, go through bush to bush and things like that. And then she had a 22nd commute from there to where we had her office set up here.

Anne Riley
00:27:08

Right. And she gets her work done in half the time because there's no interruptions. Exactly.

Michael Herst
00:27:15

So they evolved into a hybrid situation for a lot of people and left some people working, working remotely because the commute that they had done was an hour, hour and a half, you know, more than that time period.

Then they realized that productivity went way up and life happiness, happiness at work and happiness at home is the life, work, balance came into play. So it makes us all reflect. Maybe this is more of what's normal. Allowing that work, life balance, for example.

Anne Riley
00:27:46

Yeah.

Michael Herst
00:27:47

Which gave us.

Anne Riley
00:27:48

Well, you know.

Michael Herst
00:27:50

I'm sorry.

Anne Riley
00:27:51

No, go ahead.

Michael Herst
00:27:52

That gave us the reflection to look back on the connection with nature again.

That's what I was kind of coming back to because we had stopped doing that, you know, this gave us go back and watch the birds, watch the hummingbirds, watch the bees work. You know what I mean?

Anne Riley
00:28:10

Right. And then you feel. You realize you miss them and how grateful you are to.

They enrich your life in a way, because you miss them, it helps enrich your life. Well, this is the interesting thing about humans that I want to really impart to people is that, you know, nature, animals, they don't.

They have their goals set. The DNA just kind of says, here's your goals, here's your rules. But humans are born with no ideas. We don't have any goals.

We have to create our own goals as we grow. And we can only get the ideas that are given to us and the ones we learn from school and other people and all those things.

And then we have to develop our own set of values, which is what I call our goals. And if you. If you can't. Sometimes we don't even know that's what we're supposed to do.

We're being told what to do all the time, and we're like, oh, I'm just supposed to do these things? I mean, that's how I grew up. It was like, I'm not supposed to think about what I want. I'm just supposed to do these things and follow in the order.

But. But that doesn't. That is not how you lead to your own happiness, which I think is this personal satisfaction, this. This inner peace that you get.

It comes from saying, this is what I'm about. And some people may be about, I gotta succeed at work. And other people may be, I need to go to work and make a living.

But I really want to be able to commune with nature and all kinds of other things in between. And each person is responsible for coming up with their own values and their own set of rules that help them live those values.

And I think this is a really important piece that sometimes I don't think we catch on to.

Michael Herst
00:29:48

No, I agree with that. And I think that we as human beings need to reflect more.

That's what I like what you, I mean, getting more in depth into your book in regard to this approach for the, you know, the human idea. And I've never heard it put the way that you put it about the Earth's new ecosystem and piecing this together as an ecosystem.

Because in reality, I think an ecosystem, as you have been explaining it, requires cooperation. As you've said numerous times through this conversation, it requires that cooperation in order to succeed, either succeed or fail.

We've watched things that have disappeared because they were missing part of whatever they needed to connect to make it work the way that it needed to work.

Anne Riley
00:30:41

Right.

Michael Herst
00:30:42

Unfortunately, I think humans are also taking some pieces off the board that inadvertently are also affecting nature's ecosystem, which in turn affects us.

Anne Riley
00:30:53

Right. In that regard, that's a very, A big danger is that we are, I look at it as the ecosystem and the idea sphere at odds with each other.

On the one hand, the idea sphere is this wonderful, creative, amazing, innovative place. And on the other hand, we're innovating ourselves right into killing the home that we physically need to live on.

And I think we just, I mean, you know, I don't know that humans are. I mean, I wrote this book with the hope that humans could see a different perspective and say maybe we can do this a different way.

Which is kind of a big ask for people, right? But I was like, well, might as well. I mean, I'm not getting any younger, you know, but if we don't, I don't know that we will last.

You know, 99.9% of all species have died. There is nothing. We are this amazing one of a kind species and we may not make it because we're the only ones who can destroy ourselves.

Animals get destroyed because they can't compete for food or the meteor and destroys them. Yeah, exactly. But we are the only ones who can destroy ourselves. And we are in that process.

And, and when we go, we take the ideas fair with us because the, maybe some other animal will evolve into becoming a thinking species that can manipulate the environment in this way. But I don't know, it may just. I don't know. But we are not helping ourselves by doing this.

And there's a danger, you know, when you physically undermine your, your, the physical environment which you live, you are endangering your existence. And the ideasphere is dependent upon the ecosystem. It is not independent of it. It is completely and utterly dependent.

If we can't create an idea and earn resources from it. We don't survive. So the ideas for will be the first thing to go.

Michael Herst
00:33:01

You know, it is, it reminds me not to go off onto the sci fi side of it, but it reminds me of the latest Planet of the Apes movie.

Anne Riley
00:33:15

Oh, okay. I did not see that.

Michael Herst
00:33:16

Yeah.

In reality because what they've done is obviously apes have grown to such a point that they took over what the humans messed up and they talk about how they. Again, not a review, but in reality everything that you just spoken about is projected in this latest movie.

And basically that humans destroyed the planet and they destroyed what they lived, what they, you know, why they're here and what they're here for. They were their own demise and there was only a small group left who were trying to survive kind of a situation.

And apes evolved in such a manner that they took over recognizing that humans destroyed the planet and destroyed themselves in the process.

So I find that kind of ironic that everything that you've just spoken about in what's coming into your book is exactly the direction we may be headed. It triggered it when you said that we may be our own demise and who knows what's going to come up behind us in regard to that.

Whether or not they'll recognize the mistakes.

Anne Riley
00:34:30

That humankind or if, if they will at all for a while.

I mean I read a book on convergent evolution that said, you know, if the dinosaurs weren't destroyed, the dinosaurs would have evolved into a thinking species that, you know, and they had a picture of a, of a two legged guy with a dinosaur head. It was really cool. But, but I was like, oh yeah. Because that's how evolution works.

If the human mind has evolved because it was way more efficient to survive with thinking and using those thoughts to get resources. It was very, very efficient and that's why humans have done so well.

But like I said, we are the only ones who can can do really good and really bad at the same time.

Most other animals can only just do what they can do and they don't have enough DNA instructions to destroy much else except maybe a predator, a prey that they have to eat. You know, that's as much as they do. And, and the ecosystem lives with that in mind.

It's all set up, you know, it's, it's survived with that sort of equilibrium of life forms. But again, 99.9% of all life forms have died or species have died. So it's not like it's perfect.

We, we don't, I don't think there's any expectation that we can survive or that we should survive based on the history, the historical record. But I would like to. But if we're going to do it, we need to be more at home with nature so that we don't destroy the planet we're living on.

And I think that the. Nature gives us the rules to work with that are very, they're very clear and very simple. Simple. And we just need to be able to do them.

Michael Herst
00:36:09

And it allows for everybody.

Anne Riley
00:36:11

Yes, it allows for everybody to be here. Who would disagree with.

To me, the basic underlying concept of survival, of civilization, is that you get to do what you want, but you can't harm anybody else. And if everybody could, I think everyone can agree with that regardless.

Because on the one hand you get freedom, as much freedom as you can, and the second, you don't harm anybody else, but they don't harm you. So if we all agree to that, then it's just the how to. To implement that. But that simple rule is exactly how nature works.

The, the brain doesn't, doesn't lord over people. It just says, hey, you get to do what you want, but you can't mess up the heart, you cannot mess up the kidney.

You know, sorry, you can't do it, we're not letting you, you know, and that's how it's evolved and it's very successful.

Michael Herst
00:36:59

Yeah.

Well, it reminds me, I watch a lot of natural National Geographic and that geo and programs like this, Jack, Hannah and that kind of thing because I, I love the, how they really express nature and the way it works. And this reminds me of one, an episode where on National Geographic where they showed a leopard that actually killed a chimpanzee.

And then when it heard to eat, but then when it realized the chimpanzee was a mother and had a baby, it did not eat the mother. And then when other cats were coming up, it took the baby up into the trees and protected it until the.

I don't know what you call the tribe of other monkeys, chimpanzees showed up. And then the leopard jumped off the tree and they went up and got the baby monkey.

Okay, so it shows right there that nature takes care of itself, understanding that it served for survival of everyone.

Anne Riley
00:38:11

Right. But, but it's also, you know, nature is very, it's very competitive, but it's also very collaborative.

I mean, you just look at the bees and nectar, you know, that's a mutually beneficial relationship. And so again, where things are more efficient to survive and more, you know, nature doesn't choose.

If collaboration is a more efficient way to survive, they will do so. If competition is a more efficient way to survive, they will do so. They don't, they can't choose.

And because life is such a different thing than before life, you know, it was just matter and energy. Right. And those things don't have an existence. They, I say they only have an existence. They don't have a life cycle.

But once you create life where you have to have resource, and if you don't have resources, you die, it changes the whole equation. And so now life has to develop these. The evolution of things has developed techniques to keep things alive.

And when you talk about the leopard, I think the leopard is probably aware that that is the behavior it would make for its own self. And it can't distinguish between, uh, oh, I see a baby, I can't distinguish between a leopard baby and a chimpanzee baby. I just, I need to do this.

There's, it's an, it's an instinct, which is just a very. Instinct is just a word that says evolution. Years and millions and millions of years of evolutionary experience, I've shown from that perspective.

Michael Herst
00:39:42

Yeah, I think that, I think I agree with you. I think that it's an interesting approach to understanding how this all works.

As I said earlier, and I've said it so many times, life can change in an instant. So this goes back to choice, which, which everything we've talked about, I think relies on choice of a human being. You have a choice.

Anne Riley
00:40:04

Well, that's our superpower. Yeah, exactly. Choice is our human superpower.

So, you know, whenever, you know, one of the things that I have learned by embracing this mindset is it's very easy to parse through, you know, like some of our societal problems. Because I can go through and say, you know, you always want to maximize the choice of people, but you need to minimize the harmony.

So when you asking a question like, for instance, like gay marriage, it's like, where's the harm? Nobody's harming anybody with gay marriage. So I'm like, ah, it's okay.

But then you look at something like guns, where it's like, ah, there really is potential harm. Where potential harm exists, regulation is required because the goal of, of the coordinating system, which is our government, is to keep people safe.

And so I would just say it's logical.

Now how you do regulation is, you know, there's a lot of arguments to be made, but regulation to prevent these kinds of shootings, we don't want to necessarily prevent gun Ownership, you want to prevent shootings.

Michael Herst
00:41:10

Exactly.

Anne Riley
00:41:10

So how do you do this? And that's where I like want experts to weigh in and say how do you maximize people's choice but minimize the harm to innocent bystanders?

And guns are particularly difficult because you don't get to come back from a shooting, you know, you're dead. And so it's not fair. It's not fair. So regulation is required. And to me that's, that's a no brainer.

It's like, well if you don't want to do harm, you have to regulate it so that, that makes it easier for me to sort through problems that, that exist in our society.

Michael Herst
00:41:43

Exactly.

And it's, it's when I say choice, you have a good choice, you have a bad choice, you can make a choice, you have free will to make a choice, you can make a good choice, you can make a bad choice. And what's for the betterment of the community, society as a whole, not just for yourself individually.

So I think that we all need to reflect upon that in regard to how we make those choices in the direction that we take them.

Anne Riley
00:42:08

Right. Well and as you're an individual, you can make a choice that's best for you.

And then as you grow you, oh, now I have to make a choice with best of my family or the best for my children. And, and you have to sort it through. But a government, their job is to make choices that are for the good of the people. That's their only choice.

So any other interference in that choice should be eliminated. And to me that means take the all the private money out of elections. In government there should be no lobbyists.

Communication, yes, we definitely want communication and feedback, but money and resources going to government and to going to elections, nuh, that interferes. The body would never let the brain be influenced like that. And we shouldn't either.

Michael Herst
00:42:54

100%. I agree with you, 100%. You guys should come back on, we'll have another conversation almost about all that.

Anne Riley
00:43:03

Yes.

Michael Herst
00:43:04

Well, you know the perspectives I think in today's society and culture, unfortunately with the divisive nature that's going on at the moment in regard to, and the misinformation that's being spread everywhere. It's allowing, not want to say allowing. It is presenting the opportunity for people to make bad choices.

It's presenting the opportunity where we don't recognize within ourselves that our survival depends upon our choices in regard to whether or not we make a good choice or a bad choice.

Anne Riley
00:43:34

Right.

One of the most important Points I make in the book is how important education is, because as we expand our ability to create information, we also expand the ability for people to take little streams of information and live their whole lives in that little stream and not have a full picture of the world. And if you do that, what you get is.

I mean, imagine the conversation between a person who only deals with celebrities and a person who only reads about philosophers. That Venn diagram does not intersect. And it's really, really hard to have conversations.

So the only thing, because we have no ideas, we're born with no ideas. We.

Our responsibility is to put a subset of ideas in there in through education that maximizes people's understanding of the choices they have and helps them learn how to not harm others. So education becomes really, really, really important when in the idea sphere because it's how you become a full member of the ideasphere.

It's how you become an adult in our society.

Michael Herst
00:44:44

Well, with that in mind, I think that brings up a question, actually.

What are some practical steps people can take to foster a sense of connection to one another and the earth in regard to keeping what you just said in a forward momentum?

Anne Riley
00:45:01

Right. Well, the first thing. Thank you. That's a really good question. The first thing is, if you really believe in this idea, you live your life this way.

It means that you go out in the world and you don't harm anybody else. At your very least, you can help people, you can do whatever, but you can't harm anybody.

And then you maximize your choices out and your world, which makes you happy.

And then if you're a parent, you deal with your children this way, which means you're trying to maximize their choices for their decisions in life, for them to build their own goals and their own value systems, and at the same time do no harm to them. Figure out how to be in a way where you're a nurturing parent and not just a punishing parent, right? And then if you work, you live this way.

If you become a CEO, you make your company not harm people. You know, you make your organization maximize the choice. You know, when people work, they have a role so they can't just go out and do everything.

But you live your role and you do what you can, you know, in that role, to maximize your choices and minimize harm. And then if you're a public servant, same thing.

You're out there making decisions that will help people to maximize their choices in life and to minimize the harm being done to them. If we live our lives that way and everywhere we Go. We keep doing this thing. I think the world will become a better place. Also. I would love.

I'm a very much a generalist. I wrote this book because I'm taking from physics and chemistry and biology and economics and sociology. Those are things that I.

I grab a little bit from everywhere. But there are experts in their field who know what they're doing.

I would love them to take their expertise, combine it with this attitude of do no harm and maximize choice, and come up with solutions in their industry, whether they're educators or scientists or firemen or police people, and see what they can come up with that makes this world a better place. By using this idea.

Michael Herst
00:47:12

What a wonderful idea. I think it's an opportunity for everybody to kind of address things from an interdisciplinary approach.

Anne Riley
00:47:20

Right.

Michael Herst
00:47:21

I love that word. That's why I got. I'm happy to say I'm one of the first individuals to get an actual master's degree in interdisciplinary studies.

Anne Riley
00:47:31

Right.

Michael Herst
00:47:32

And it. It showed me that taking ideas, just to expand upon what you were saying, taking ideas from.

And having contributions from different modalities and implementing them to come up to a solution, a common solution, is a very unique way to solve a problem.

Anne Riley
00:47:51

Right, Right. And, you know, we have the ability to cross fields and apply knowledge from one field to another. We're master communicators.

That's what humans are the best at doing. And so I want. I love that.

To me, the ideal thing is to mix of people who are interdisciplinary and see larger pictures and patterns and with people who are detailed experts in their field and like child experts who know how children work and how they develop is really important. And mixing an education system with this. What do you teach them about not harming people at age 3, age 4, age 5, 5 age, you know, 12th grade.

How does it look? You know, those are the mix. That's the mixture I want to get to. I want.

I'm really hoping that people will cotton to the idea and then develop their own solutions, because that's where the genius lies in. In the world, is getting people to apply this. This holistic concept to their particular field.

Michael Herst
00:48:58

Is that how the concept of ideasphere provides a roadmap for addressing issues like that, like climate change?

Anne Riley
00:49:04

I do social quality. I do. I use a practical application with social media. And my appendix two goes into kind of how to approach a problem this way.

And I just use social media as an example. I do have, in the back of my mind, I'm starting to put together a set of sort of my own ideas.

About how to address some of these problems, like police policing is one that is kind of interesting and I would love your input on. And then things like homelessness or healthcare. Our healthcare system is really inefficient.

So I have lots of ideas and maybe another book coming, but, man, it's right now I got to get this one out and figure out what to do. But those wheels keep turning. They don't stop.

Michael Herst
00:49:58

One step at a time, as they say, one step at a time. Exactly what actionable insights can individuals apply from your theory to improve their personal lives?

Anne Riley
00:50:10

I think that from my own personal experience living this life where I am, I know that I get to set my own values and live them, and that I can choose what I want to do. And my only rule is to not harm others has left me free in this world to just live.

And I live my life the way I want to, and I embrace people who are like, really different from me because I learned so much, and that's a value to me. And so to me, I think if you. If you pick this up and really live this way, you can kind of say, you know, I'm not hurting anybody.

I kind of do these things. And at the other point, you can look at people and say, you know, they're not hurting anybody. That is completely okay.

And in fact, because you're responding in such a different way, you might be able to learn something from how they're approaching the world. And I think this has enriched my life every day, and I live this way and I really enjoy it.

Michael Herst
00:51:13

I think that's a positive way to live your life.

I think that we all need to take that kind of an approach and think about not just ourselves, but others as well in how we can make a positive influence on them. How do you hope your work will influence future discussions about the intersection of science, philosophy, ethics, and human potential?

Anne Riley
00:51:34

I think to me, I want the idea to spread. I want people to be able to hang on to this one sentence. You can do what you want, but you can't hurt anybody else.

And your society and your environment, I want that to be as normal a phrase in the world as survival of the fittest was at Darwin's time. That's what I really want. I want people to be able to say, hey, you can do what you want, but you can't hurt anybody.

And that why want that to be the normal base, that everybody at least understands that that's how. That's one way to live.

Michael Herst
00:52:13

You know, that that's kind of a.

Anne Riley
00:52:14

Big That's a big ask, but that's.

Michael Herst
00:52:16

What I. Yeah, but I think it's also a very profound ask. I think that is something that is necessary for society's survival, for humankind's survival.

Anne Riley
00:52:27

And you can't change unless you have a vision of what to change too. And to me, that's what the one sentence is. It's my vision. And so you got to start no matter where you are.

You got to start where you are, but you have to have a vision that you believe in. And this vision, because it's grounded in nature and nature has proven to be really successful at this. This is a place I feel confident believing in.

Michael Herst
00:52:54

I agree with you as an individual that absolutely loves my connection with nature and the universe. I think that 100% this is a path that way that everybody should kind of take an idea and take a lesson from. Not an idea, but take a lesson from.

I was going to try to come up with something really unique about Ideasphere, because I think that's a unique word.

Anne Riley
00:53:19

It is. I had to work. It's funny, there's a company called Ideasphere and there was a fellow in California who had a radio show called Ideasphere.

And I texted him and I said, do you mind if I use this in my book? And he's like, sure. And I ended up going on his radio show and having a great time talking about the Ideasphere. But it is.

I couldn't, I love it if somebody came up with a better word than that. I think it's kind of hard to say and I'm not sure, but it does express what I want, which is the human ecosystem. But you know, I'm.

I'm open to, I'm hoping to a better phrase. So if, if you've got a better one, hit me with it.

Michael Herst
00:54:00

Well, about 3:00 this morning, it'll hit me.

Anne Riley
00:54:03

Okay, well, just email me.

Michael Herst
00:54:06

Yeah, let's tell everybody how we can get your book and how we can get on it. You have a website and you've got information on there that could help other people in regard to achieving this, Right?

Anne Riley
00:54:19

Well, the. My website is thehumanidea.com and you can reach me. You know, there, there's a contact page, but also there's a survey.

I would love it if your listeners would tell me what they think about the future of humanity because I'm very interested to hear how people are thinking and it's very interesting. The answers I've gotten so far is most people are very optimistic about humanity's survival chances, which I was.

I didn't know whether to be surprised or not surprised, but it was really interesting to see that. So I'm interested to hear what people have to say about that. The Human Idea comes out on November 19th. It will be everywhere.

If you don't find it in your library, you can ask your librarian to order it. It'll be at all the normal bookstores, Barnes and Noble, but it's also on Amazon and all the book outlets and the ebooks outlets.

So you can kind of find it, what, wherever. The dena book is the same thing. It's a lot longer and has a story around it and a lot more conversation.

I think in some ways, it's deeper than the human idea, but it's not for everybody. So it seems to be that women really like Dina and men really like the human idea.

I'm not sure if it's just that they like the story, and there's a little bit of a, you know, a little bit of a backstory with the characters, and people like stories. So, you know, I like to tell stories. So that was. That was kind of fun to write. And I have a. I do have a YouTube channel called Human Ideasphere.

And there I go through every. Every week, I put up a little snippet of, you know, kind of how the ideas fear works, starting from the big bang.

And I'm going through, you know, slowly every week. So it'll probably take me, like, four years. But, yeah, you know, that's what we'll do.

Michael Herst
00:56:11

It's like a fine wine, right? Everything takes time. A fine wine to get to where it needs to go.

Anne Riley
00:56:16

Exactly.

Michael Herst
00:56:17

They can find you on Instagram as well. I know it's on the screen here before our listeners out there. Can you see how to find you on Instagram?

Anne Riley
00:56:24

Yes, exactly. At Ann. Underscore. Underscore. Ideas Fair. So, yeah.

Michael Herst
00:56:30

Well, this has been an amazing conversation, and we did not get to talk about everything we could have talked about, so you have to come back on. We'll finish the conversation, but thank you for being here. I really appreciate what you're presenting to the world.

I think it's an opportunity for all of us to understand that we do have a choice, and that choice can be very positive. And that if we do, you know, think about the survival of mankind and in such a way that we can protect our future generations in.

Anne Riley
00:57:01

Right.

Michael Herst
00:57:02

In growing and understanding how we're all supposed to work together in nature, it'd be great.

Anne Riley
00:57:08

Oh, thank you so much. For having me. I really, really appreciate it. This has been a delightful conversation. You're a delightful host.

Michael Herst
00:57:15

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. This is one more thing before you go, so I have to ask, do you have any words of wisdom?

Anne Riley
00:57:22

All I want for people to understand is that you can do what you want and don't hurt anybody else. That's it.

Michael Herst
00:57:28

This works. Profound words of wisdom and thank you very much for being on the show again. I really appreciate it.

For everyone else out there, I'll have all of her contact information on the webpage and in the show notes so that you can easily find her how to get her book when it comes out. And I'll make sure that for you, Anne. I'll make sure to keep an eye out for that when it is.

I'll put a link in the show notes retroactively so it's there. And for everyone else out there, please subscribe like us. Share it. Leave us a review and one more thing before you all go. Have a great day.

Have a great weekend. Thanks for being here.

Anne Riley
00:58:03

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of One More Thing before you Go.

Check out our website@ beforeyougopodcast.com you can find us as well as subscribe to the program and rate us on your favorite podcast listening platform.