Transforming Grief: The Healing Power of Art and Movement

Hey, one more thing before you go. Before we dive in, I want to issue a trigger warning. This episode discusses sensitive topics, including suicide. So please take care of yourself.

Listen to your own pace.

If you or someone you know is experiencing thoughts of self harm or harming others, please reach out to the national Suicide Prevention lifeline by calling or texting. 9, 8, 8. How can art and physical activity aid in the healing process after losing a loved one to suicide?

Especially, what are some of the practical steps individuals can take to support someone who is grieving a loss due to suicide?

In this episode, we're going to answer these questions and many more when we have a conversation with a remarkable individual that turned his personal tragedy into a mission of hope and healing. I'm your host, Michael Herst. Welcome to One More Thing before you go. My guest today is Thomas Brown.

He's an extraordinary individual who turned personal tragedy into a mission of hope and healing. After losing his brother to suicide in 2001, Thomas spent a decade grappling with grief. We've all been there.

In 2012, he and his friend, who also lost a brother to suicide, embarked on a cross country bicycle tour to raise awareness about suicide and the healing power of art. Their journey began at the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco and ended at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors in Wappinger Falls, New York.

Hope I said that right. This adventure honored Thomas brother and followed the path of Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, using modern film and music as examples.

Can't wait to get into this conversation.

The journey began with a cosmic giggle of synchronicity and focused on cultivating self awareness through dreams, psychic psychedelic experiences and synchronicity. Since then, Thomas has dedicated himself to helping others who have experienced similar losses.

He spent three years as a group facilitator, a local mental health facility and host two mental health podcasts focused on healing, inner monologue and stages. Recently he published his book 2012 A Bicycle Odyssey, which chronicles his cross country adventure and the lessons he learned along the way.

Welcome to show Thomas.

Thank you for having me, Michael. I'm. It's great. I'm grateful to be here.

You know what?

I.

What a journey that you have been on. A journey.

The journey you took in itself is amazing, but a journey in healing on top of that, I think is a really a, A testament to the tenacity and the fortitude of an individual.

Yeah, I mean, I, I appreciate that. I, I think it is important. Nobody, nobody here gets out unscathed. That's a, it's a quote from A recent.

A new television show about therapy on Apple TV called Shrinking. Harrison Ford is. Harrison Ford says that. And it's just like the most. The truest, like, statement.

Everybody, everybody's gonna have scars, everybody's gonna have traumas, and, and, and they're gonna have to deal with grief. That's, That's a part of existing, the part of living. I also, like, think that, like, those. When it's.

What I'm about to say is a very privileged statement.

But, you know, if you are in that state of privilege to have been able to, like, step away or, or process your grief enough where you're able to take a step back and view it as an event that happened rather than a thing that happened to me that you, you have the. You have the.

You come to a fork in the road and, like, one is like, well, am I going to be a victim of this thing or am I going to be a student of it? And how do I. How do I. How do I. What. What's the purpose?

Because to me, I, I think, you know, it's important that human beings create meaning and purpose. Some, Some people need it created for them. I think that it's important for us to create our own.

And, you know, when you experience something, whenever something stressful happens, I always try to. One foot isn't like, damn it. And the other foot is in. All right, what's the purpose? Because it's important to feel.

It's important to allow yourself to feel. It's important to, to allow yourself to go through the. The spectrum of emotions about any given situation.

But it's also important to realize that this is an opportunity for you to, to grow and evolve and expand your awareness, which I think is the most important game in town. The only game in town is. Is the expansion of one's awareness.

I agree with it 100%. And we have so much in common. Shrinking is the fantastic opportunity for us to really kind of get a little bit of therapy for free.

Yeah, yeah. And totally. And to be honest with you, like, I, I got a co worker that's finally going through TED Lasso.

And so now I'm watching it again for, like, my fourth round. Like, TED Lasso is, like, really, really an important television show for me. We are given goals at work.

I, I work in a library, which I think is, like, one of the most important, least appreciated, and will probably one of the most important elements of our society. It's the last free space where you can go without the expectation of spending money. And we get all Types of people. Mostly. Mostly.

Mostly the individuals that, you know, are. Are. Are in the most danger in life. The people that are suffering the most. And so, like Ted Lasso. When I watched the first season, I. We.

We were doing a goal. All of us, all the supervisors. I'm a supervisor. We're doing a goal on leadership.

And I asked if I could do an extensive deep dive on the leadership capabilities and qualities of Ted Lasso and how to apply them to my position, how to apply them to my department, and how to apply them in life. My. My. My supervisor, she was like, yeah, like, let's see what you can get out of that. And she was blown away.

That's great. That's. That's awesome. That's awesome. I know. I know a writer, Ted Lasso. So, yeah, I'll have to make sure you understand. He knows that. That's really.

Yeah, it's. It's one of the most wholesome and important shows that I've seen in a long time. And to be honest with you, if I. I'm.

I like to cry, but sometimes I have difficulty crying. I've. I've cried a lot, and maybe I'm out of tears, but when I really need to force myself to cry, there's a conversation.

At the end of season two, it's.

Ted is finally talking to the therapist, and it's a juxtaposition between the story that he's telling and the story that Rebecca is telling her mother at her father's funeral. And when I need to cry, I'll go and I'll watch that.

I don't want to give any spoilers away, but Ted and I, the fictional character of Ted Lasso and I have a little bit in common.

Oh, that's pretty cool. I'm gonna go back and check that out. Just.

Yeah.

Yes, we do.

I think it's like episode. It's. It's the funeral episode in season two.

I can check that out.

You'll know when you see it.

Big, huge Ted Lasso. In fact, my wife and I did a show. We do an over the Teacup on Sundays just to kind of lighten the mood.

And we did a show all about Ted Lasso, and we did another one about shrinking, and we love him, the whole aspect of it. So, anyway, back to business. Back to business. I was like, start at the beginning. Where'd you grow up? What was your family like?

I grew up in South Scottsdale, Arizona, and I do preference Scottsdale because there isn't the South Scottsdale because there's A difference between South Scottsdale and North Scottsdale. I grew up right next to the Tempe border, probably about three miles, five miles from Arizona State University.

My family was really basic and I don't say that in a, in a, in a derogatory tone. We typical middle class family, didn't really need to want for anything.

It was just my mom, my, my dad, my brother and I, and my, my grandparents on my, my dad's side that lived out here wasn't like a really, really big family. Most of the family was back east. But like, we had food on the table, we had roof above our head, we had clothing on our back. We were taken care of.

There was probably like, I would say, like one of the things that became my cross to bear, especially after high school when I became aware of this is my codependency issues. And I definitely got those, those from my parents. My parents were very codependent upon each other. They didn't like to be separated for very long.

They both were, would get really sad. They're very clingy. And growing up I never saw anything that was wrong with that.

And if that was the way, if that is what brought them joy, I'm happy for them. And, and it did bring them joy. But for me, as it wasn't the best example, I didn't have a lot of agency as I became a young man.

And I think a lot of that just came from growing up in the clutches between two codependent parents and just be developing codependency on my, on my own. So my brother was the golden child of the family. He was much more sophisticated minded than my parents. My parents grew up in a simpler time.

And when I say that I, I'm referring more to technology.

And they had two, they were raising two young men in a much bigger city than where they grew up in a time where technology was just beginning its explosion with computers, video games, cell phones and stuff like that. So you know, they did the best that they could in the circumstances not understanding the, the world that they were raising two children in.

So my brother being much more sophisticated minded, once he realized that, he kind of took over the family dynamic, which was also something else that I saw and recognized in later years was inappropriate for my parents to kind of like submit that power to their youngest when he was like in his 20s. So. And it, that created a lot of stress between my brother and I when we were like, once I graduated from.

High school, yeah, it was only you and only you and your brother. No sisters or Anything.

Yeah, just, just my brother Mark and.

I, I mean it, it's interesting. How, how did that impact that, your relationship with your brother, how did that impact your life? In, in, in a way that.

Well, at first it wasn't like the biggest deal because I could take advantage of it because my brother loved me and we played a lot of B. I played basketball in high school and we were both like movie nerds too.

So he would take me, you know, now they have you go and see a movie that's supposed to come out on Friday.

There's a 7 o'clock showing on Thursday night and you could buy, you could order your tickets ahead of time and you could buy the seat back in the 80s and 90s, you know, you had to wait in line.

Yeah.

And, and any big blockbuster movie, if it was premiering the day before it's advertised, it was actually more at midnight. So my brother would take me to those midnight movies when I was, you know, under the age of 16.

My parents were cool with that and I would go with him and his friends in the summertime or if we had, if I had a Friday off, my parents would, my parents would let me him take me on a Thursday midnight movie during the school year. But as we got older, my brother's heart was broken.

After he is a few years after he graduated from high school and rather than growing from that experience in a positive way, he decided that he was never going to be have let a woman break his heart ever again. So he became a womanizer.

And this is where it really started to affect me because as I was graduating high school, he started dating one of my friends and my brother was, was six years older than me and he was also dating his longtime girlfriend who eventually after high school became my boss.

So I'm stuck in between the fact that like my brother's dating my friend that was like his trophy girl and then he was dating this other woman which was my boss, which was like his heart. And then he had all these other conquests in between and I just didn't want to be involved. I just didn't want to be involved with it.

I was like that, like, like this is too confusing. Like you maybe you can catch up and you can keep up, but it's the, to your advantage to keep everything straight.

It, it's not my job to do that and I plus I don't really agree with what you're doing. And at that time I was experimenting with, you know, mind altering substances, dipped my toe into the cannabis and my Brother didn't like that.

And so he was. He was unfaithful to his partners, to both of them, creating this warped reality, using their own denial against them.

And anybody who didn't want that wouldn't participate in the web he was weaving. He would. He would not only disown, but he would work against them. So because I wouldn't work, I wouldn't lie for my brother.

We all worked for, like, the same organization. He tr. He would do everything he could to kind of like bowed mouth, badmouth my reputation.

I mean, I wasn't doing a good job with my reputation because I was a young kid, and I just didn't care. And I had this rebellious streak in me, but he didn't help either.

And so there was a strain between us from the time I was about 19 till I was 24 when he died. We had a few months, about six months before he died, where he was making the effort to rebuild the bridge.

And that was probably the closest we had been in what I would at that time call my adult life.

What kind of an impact did his loss, his loss have on your life? Because I. I have a younger brother, so I understand that brother mentality.

I understand that we fought, we loved each other, but we also had our differences, and he took a different path than I took. So I understand that dynamic. I do. But I think that even with that, the loss of my brother would be devastating, I think. So how did his loss. How.

What kind of impact they have on your life?

It has different moments of impact from time to time. At the time, as much, you know, we had been disconnected for years. For years. Like, almost close, four or five years. And we just had that six months.

So I still was more used to life without him than with him. And it took me a while before I even really delved into, like, my own grief.

Like, I had moments where I would cry because I would feel and I'd be sad, but I was really. I didn't have the tools to, like, manage my own life, let alone manage my parents.

And that was kind of like the decision that I made that, like, I can't imagine what it's like for two people to lose a child. And I saw how it bro. Emotionally broke my father. My mom bounces back, but she still allows, you know, she still feels things.

She still felt things, like, tremendously. She had a much better. She's always. She was always much better articulating her emotions than my father has ever done. And it's not because he.

He doesn't Know how he knows how he just doesn't know how to put string the words together. My, My dad is kind of got like a little bit of Forrest Gump in him.

Definitely undiagnosed learning disorder, you know, but that's what happens when you grow up in a small town, Wellington, Kansas, in the, in the 40s and 50s, you know, so she just had a better time. Yeah, she just had a better time of articulating. My dad kind of creates his own language, and once you.

It takes you a little bit of extra effort to pin the words together and, and for. And help him form his idea, he's very grateful when he, when he has somebody patient to help him with that.

But, yeah, my mom was just always good and I just, I was, I was more upset. I, I was upset with my brother. I wasn't mad at him. A lot of people can be angry at people that they lose to suicide.

I saw the pain that he was in those six months before he died, and I also saw the pain that my parents were in. And I wanted to do my best to try to keep the family together, though I was unable to keep my own life together.

So it caught up to me about six, seven years later, which is when I found therapy. But it finally caught up to me.

And the reason why my brother was in such despair for those last six months is that, like, those two women finally got sick of his charade and they left him at the same time. And, you know, in order to sell a lie, you gotta believe a lie. And when they left that, his belief in that lie just crumbled.

And he didn't have any true foundation to help him navigate who he is as an individual. He just had his, his, this fake lifestyle and this fake perception, and that was all taken away from him.

And he didn't know how to handle it because he didn't have any tools.

Either to be able to do it. Yeah, it's, you know, it. I think we as individuals and my parents were both dysfunctional as well.

They were both alcoholics and had their own issues with depression and stuff in. At the same time, in the environment that they grew up in.

You didn't talk about depression, you didn't talk about anger, you didn't talk about being sad. You know, you're supposed to be happy and jovial all the time. And as opposed to anything that would cross the line, you had to suppress.

You weren't allowed to do that. Men were not allowed to cry. You had to be the man, step up and be the man. Kind of a thing. And some of the things that took my.

Which I didn't find out until later myself, some of the things that happened in my parents life, I didn't find out until way later as an adult, not just as a teenager, but didn't find out till way the hell later. Like when I was in my 30s, 40s and 50s. I won't go past that to give away my.

So, you know, it is interesting when you grow up in a dysfunctional family. Not saying that you're from there, but when you grow up in a dysfunctional family like this.

It's what inspired me to be a cop actually, because I felt that if I get into an environment where I can help other people that were in the same position. I worked domestic violence for a task force for a long time and I worked DUI task force for a long time.

I chose the assignments that I felt I could best make an impact on what I experienced in my childhood. So my brother took a different path.

I think we all do that in life and sometimes we create an environment around us that might not be a complete reality. Did, did I mean, did your brother have any, any diagnosed like depression or anxiety or anything along that line that would have contributed to his.

No. I think I was the only outlier at that time within my brother's group and my, my friend's group that I was like open.

Open about my emotions and being like a crier and allowing myself space to cry and talking about my feelings. My friends were always good with like allowing me the space to do so.

But you know, you, you, you know, I think back back in that time period, I still wouldn't say that I was depressed in that I now looking back, like, yeah, I was totally depressed. I had a lot of anxiety in high school. I didn't feel comfortable in my own skin.

And for me, like the first real thing that like I was always like an emotional, creative person and always, you know, looked at things a little bit differently than my peers from like elementary school, middle school, and even high school.

And like my first bout with like true heartache by losing, you know, a partner that I had been with for a long time just because, you know, we were young and she took a different path like that that messed me up a lot and that only added to my anxiety and, and my codependency issues exasperated them. But you know, I would talk about these things, but I wouldn't, I didn't think, I, I didn't know what. Like just the concept of going to therapy.

I Was like, I got my friends. They'll help me, you know, but that's. That's just, like, exhausting for them. And it's good to, like, have somebody who's been trained, you know?

You're not going to take. You're not going to. Just.

Because if somebody's your friend, if they're not a mechanic, you're not going to give them your car to look at, you know, to do an oil change or to go in and do some. Some proper maintenance just because they're your friend, you know, they could be a desk jockey, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I tidied up the inside of your car, and the dashboard looks great. Right. I organized everything in your console and your.

In your glove box is what we did. But did you change the oil? No. Don't know how to do that one. What. What had. Did anybody notice any signs or symptoms before your brother took his life?

Okay, so being in the time period that, you know, I was the only one expressing my feelings and. And it's. Men were still. It wasn't, you know, a thing for men to express themselves in that way, especially if they weren't, like, an artist.

My brother couldn't come to terms and say that he was sad. He needed, like, a physical reason for why he lost the weight, why he was down in the dumps. It wasn't because these ladies left him.

It's because he had cancer and he was dying. So he created this secondary illusion to explain away his heartache and. And. And physical change. I didn't really buy it, but I wanted.

I was just like, I'm glad we're connecting. You know, I'm not. I'm not gonna throw. This is definitely a lifeline.

I didn't know those terms back then, but I knew that, like, I was like, this sounds a little sketchy, but he's reaching out, so I'm gonna just take that. It's. It's nice to have a connection with my brother again. There's other people that were just like, nope.

And I didn't have those conversations with those people because it was like his ex girlfriend until after the funeral. But I was like, yeah, I got you. I feel you. So, yeah, I was. It was. There were signs. He had his.

He was very depressed, but it was because, you know, the two women left him. But he never. He didn't have, like, he couldn't. He couldn't come out and say he was depressed. He had to fabricate something else.

And he's like, well, I'm taking care of It. I'm going to the doctors. I don't want anybody coming with me when I go to get my chemo.

And he was already, like, bald anyways, so I think he, like, might have like, even, like, shaved his eyebrows to, like, you know what I mean? It was just like. And didn't have a beard, so it was just. Yeah, it was. It was. It was just like this bizarre behavior of. Of. Of.

Yeah, it was just very, very bizarre behavior of just not. Not being able to, like, just admit that you. That you're sad. You know, that's all it comes down to. And he was. He was too proud and.

And, you know, always having to be like, you said, like, I'm a man, I'm strong, and I don't. I don't care. A lot of the guys that would. That I hung out with, you know, they were open to my emotions.

But there's only, like, one of them that I know that is, like, even though he was in the military, he was in the Marines, he was very accepting of my emotions. He was very, like, comforting of my emotions. But he's, like, the only one that I know that now outwardly expresses, like, his softer side, you know?

And I think, like, men who say that, you know, emotions isn't for men. Just go to any sporting bar on a Sunday, you know, you're going to see two expressions, either extreme joy or.

Or extreme, like, despair, depending on, like, what the score of the game at the end of the game is for the team that you're supporting. But, like, there's so much. There's so many more levels within the spectrum of emotion. And it's okay for you to express those. Yeah, like, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, that's. That. What a good analogy. Got a good opportunity for. Yes. That's crazy. What. Have you always. Let me ask you this.

Have you always been a bicyclist? Have you always ridden a bike?

No. No. I mean, you know, I live right next to. And you might be familiar with this.

There is a beautiful bike path in Scottsdale that now goes all the way down into Tempe and goes pretty far north into Scottsdale. It's connected to something that the city of Scottsdale created, the recreation and development planning created.

We had a wash, so whenever it rains, like, the flood waters go through there. They turned it into the park system. So we have this fabulous green belt. We have this fabulous green belt, and it's right in my backyard.

So when I was a kid, I would drive up, up and down. I would ride up and down the green belt all the time. And we would go like, as we'd probably like, go only about 10 miles north.

It wasn't connected to ASU at that time, but once I got a little bit older, yeah, I was, I had a car. I would drive to the gym or I would go jogging. I would do a lot of jogging and do stuff like that.

It wasn't until, like, I had done a walk across the country in 2006 with my parents church. They're very progressive church. I am not a Christian. I don't, I don't have any, like, religious background.

I, I'm a big into mythology and I love philosophy and I love the poetry and religion and the stories, but I look at them more from like, a mythological tone. But I went, I really resonated with like, the mission of my parents church.

So I walked across the country with them and it was both the all I was kind of like, became the intern or the sidekick for the filmmaker that was following them. So it was like film school on the road and theology on the road. And this was in 2006, a few years after my brother died.

This was kind of like the first step in me trying to like, heal myself of, like, doing something radically different from hanging out with my friends and doing drugs. I decided to go hang out with Christians and learn about wine and, and Christian theology and film and how to, how to produce stuff like that.

So when we first had the idea for the bike ride, I, I, I told Zach, I was like, let's, let's walk across the country. Because I told him this story about walking, and he was like, I would totally do that, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it by foot.

I would do it by bicycle. And in my, and in my mind, I was like, you could travel more distance in a day on a bicycle than you could by foot, so let's go twice as far.

Which is, there's no logic in that kind of thinking. It was just like, oh, let's go explore as much as we can.

And it was just during that conversation of like, you know, riding our bikes for our brothers and learning from other people that it kind of started with me talking about this, this walk I did in 2006, and then it, it morphed into the bike ride itself. So, yeah, I didn't, I, I, I didn't, I didn't do like, a lot of cycling once I got a license.

And, and I'm, I kind of look back in those days of like, places that I've Lived and how much fun having a bicycle is, even as an adult, even if you do have a license in a car. I really appreciate, like, I learned a lot. Not only did I learn a lot about myself on the bike ride, but I.

I reignited this old passion of childhood of, of being on a bicycle and just exploring.

And to me, like, cycling is also like a really powerful kind of like, meditation because it forces you to ride the line of being, like, completely detached while also being hyper focused because you don't want to hurt anybody, you don't want to hurt yourself, but you also have the ability to lose yourself from just the flow and rhythm of cycling.

So that journey, apparently from San Francisco to, and I may be mispronouncing this, is it Wappinger or Wappinger?

Wappinger's.

Wappinger. So that journey from San Francisco to Wappingers, it kind of changed you personally and emotionally.

It sounds to me like you were able to kind of grow a little bit from that.

It changed me on so many levels. I think it really, like, my codependency was shattered in that I've always been like, a big nerd.

I used to collect figures, and then when my brother died, that's probably like, the first thing that I gave up was, like, figures and comic books and I, I collect figures again. Um, I, I ride bicycle, my bicycle a little bit more. I don't do it as much as I did on that bike ride, but I'll.

I'll go for a ride, you know, around the block. I think more than anything, like, it taught me what I was capable of.

Like, I did probably 95% of the organizing for the bike ride, the cold calling of all the different crisis centers that we had to call and, and just to, like, try to, like, organize events and speaking engagements so that we can have time to talk with the, the communities that we were riding through. Like, it took 13. It took about 12 and a half months to organize before we even got on the bicycle and, and started riding. So it was a.

It was a really, really, really big thing. It was a really big undertaking.

And, you know, I would say that, like, the walk across the country in 2006 was a way for me to, like, kind of detach myself from some of the negative people that I was hanging out with due to my codependence, like, behavior, but it wasn't so, like, my professional life and like, like, my ability to follow my. My passion was one thing that I was starting to develop on my own by, by stepping out into the world for the first time.

But it wasn't until 2008 that I, that I realized I needed a little bit more help psychologically and emotionally. So that's when I found a therapist.

And it was through the therapy that I think I, I, I don't without the therapy and without, which is, was really like where I, I started to get into the importance of self awareness.

I wouldn't have the gumption or the fortitude to come up with an idea to ride my bike across the country, you know, so I, I really, the process kind of like started in 2008 and you know, the bike ride was like, that was the initiation. Like the initiation is a journey that you go on. The trials are the tests.

And if, if my therapy was the initiation and the journey of self discovery, the bike ride, in every single moment of pain, frustration and anxiety were the trials that I was tested to see how much I was actually learning through my initiation. So I, yeah, like the, the bike ride completely changed my life. It could radically change my perspective of on life.

And I take those lessons as much as I can into every aspect of my life. For the longest time I was just like, I'm an artist who happens to have a job to pay for my existence.

Because when I came back from the bike ride it was all about the book. I just wanted to write the book intentionally. Initially it was going to be a documentary.

I, I was in film school and, and so I had, I loved video, I loved, I love, I loved still photography, I love motion photography, I love the art of filmmaking, I love watching films, I love the stories, doc narratives for fiction and non fiction tales.

And so I wanted to bring, I wanted to do a documentary and I knew pretty quick that unless I had somebody else there to do all the filming, it was going to be an impossible feat. So I, I realized pretty early on that it was going to be a book and not a film. But I still shot a lot of footage.

I recorded a lot of interviews, shot footage of just the environment and I used all that footage to remind me and keep my mind fresh about the book or about the experience when writing the book. Because it took me 12 years to write the book. Writing was never one of my fortes. It was never one of my, it was something that I always like to do.

I like the idea of, of writing.

I wasn't very, I didn't have the best grammar and I was teased a lot for how bad my spelling was and my grammar so that I just kind of like, I stopped trying with riding and it wasn't until, like, I got back from the bike ride that I decided to climb that mountain and face that dragon. And I'm really, really, really proud of. Of what I put together. I hope the next book doesn't take 12 years. That would be nice.

But I think it really took me a while to find my voice, right, and how I wanted to communicate my story to the world, and that was really, really important.

So, yeah, the bike ride completely opened me up and radically changed my life, just from the simple fact that I tested my metal and it showed me what I was capable of. You're, like, right now, if there's something that I really want to do, like, if I really want to do, I have a lot of ideas. I have a lot of ideas.

But if it's something that I really want to do, you'll know, because I won't be able to shut up about it. So those are the things that, like, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna do that thing I'm gonna take, and I'm gonna take my time doing it.

And right now, a lot of that stuff is kind of, like, found its way. Those ideas have found them way. Their. Their way into the medium of podcasting and more, most importantly, writing.

Like, I really appreciate that I found a way to ignore the naysayers and the people who teased me and just found a way.

It was an ugly journey of writing the book and finding sentence structure and learning how to string words together to create a sentence that really, really conveys how I feel about something.

I think that's the one thing that's, like, really wild, is that, you know, men really only like to, like, deal with, like, the extremes of despair or happiness, and there's all these other emotions in between that on the spectrum. But I truly believe that there are emotions that we have that we. We have not. We don't have words for yet.

And that's why poetry exists, you know, because we need to express the feeling. So we, you know, we have metaphor and poetry to. To. To try to describe and convey to another person how.

Why you feel the way that you feel or how you feel.

I agree with that, and I can contribute to that along with that medium. You have. You have dance. You have. Because you have expressive dance. People express themselves in dance, in music, and in art as well.

You know, the whole creative arts feel field, I believe, allows us the methodology for communicating in the ways that we may not be able to do in a. In a. Like, a more societal way.

It's done in A way that it allows us to be able to express ourselves through dance or express ourselves through music, express ourselves through art and be able to get a message conveyed. How do you feel that the role of art in, in your healing process?

Did art, the creative arts, help you in your healing process and coping with your grief?

Yeah. Both as a creator and an audience member. Like I was more two left feet. So watching people dance, I appreciate people that can dance.

I love, I love stand up comedy. I love spoken word, I love music, I love, I love lyrical music, I love atmospheric music. I love watching movies and television shows.

And I'm a really, I really, I dig, I dig monologues. You know, I just, I just like, I love doodlers. Like, my partner is a painter.

She's got one to the right of me and then one right behind me, like a couple right behind me and they're all around me, but they're not on the screen. But yeah. My partner is a painter and an illustrator. And I just like, I love all type, all forms of creativity, of creative expression.

Like anybody that says that they're not creative, I'm just like, hogwash. You know, how you live your life can be a creative performance, you know.

Absolutely.

It could be, it could be a creative act. Think that's what we are all kind of like here, you know, whether there is some mighty, you know, being out there that created us.

To me, creativity is the ultimate form.

Like even in problem solving, you have to kind of put yourself in a creative space if it's a novel experience that you're, that, that like you're, you're, you're interacting with. Creativity is what helps you solve the problem. You know, it doesn't matter if it's like mathematics or it's fit science.

You have to be able to look at something and be like, well, what if I put this, take this and put this over here. Like that's like, that's, that's like the creative muscle in process.

So we all like creativity is far transcends far beyond what, what people think is art and creativity. And to even go further, like, I think that a society that doesn't appreciate the arts is a society that's on decline.

Artist arts and, and artistic expression is like one of the most important aspects of the human condition. One of my favorite quotes comes from a psychedelic, a psychedelic philosopher. He's not here anymore. He had some wacky ideas.

But there's this one quote that I always, I always appreciated it. And the philosopher's name is Terence McKenna. He said art's task is to save the soul of mankind. And anything less is a dithering while Rome burns.

For it is the artists who are self selected to journey into the other. So if the artist cannot find the way, then the way cannot be found.

That's very profound actually.

I love that. That quote has stuck with me like ever since I, I heard it in one of his lectures. So I, I'm a big fan of art.

Whenever I see somebody that has like even like if, if it's all, if it's only for you. Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's brilliant and beautiful. Like I, I look at that. There's a, there's a, there is more than.

When it comes to audience and artist relationship. There's, there are two types of transactions that are happening.

You obviously, you have the monetary one so that you can, you know, be an audience member. But I think there's this other transaction that's more of energetic that is happening and that is the energy of inspiration.

I'm kind of an anti influencer I think. I, I mean language is important and when we look at what the, like influencers can't exist unless they have an audience that is easily influenced.

You know, which isn't a very empowering, empowering energy to display as an audience member.

Remember inspiration on is, is, is something entirely different, different than influence if you're being inspired by somebody to do or to do something of yourself.

So it's like the, the transaction that's happening is that when you go and you see like a piece of art being performed and you come out and you've had, you had a lot of feelings about it, you had a lot of, you know, you were, you've been moved emotionally. You know, part of that is this like inspirational currency that has been trend that's, that's been transferred to you.

And the worst thing you could do is do nothing. You know, take that energy and do something beautiful. Even if it's only for the audience of self.

Like make something, draw something, write something, dance something, you know, take pictures of things like use that energy, that inspiration and go and make something beautiful. Because even if, if you, if you put it in a public space and even if you don't have that big of a following, you don't know who you're inspiring.

Even if it's only one person, one person that you'll never meet and you'll never know how much they appreciated what they saw of yours.

I agree with that. That's brilliant. It's A way of putting it. I think you did that with your book because you have a message in your book that you hope to convey.

Yeah.

To everyone. So you, you took it as a written word.

I know it was supposed to be, it started off as a documentary, but you, you do have the footage for there that, that's always still a possibility to piece, you know, piece that together.

Yeah.

But you were able to convey a message through your writing which, you know, what, what message do you hope to convey? How do you hope to inspire or motivate people that have gone through the same thing that you and your friend went through?

Well, I think the thread is, there's a, there's a couple different threads that are going through my book.

I think the mystery when it comes to, you know, the banner in which we rode our bike under is an acronym RISE stands for Revolution Inspired Self Evolution.

Looking back 12 years later, 13 years later, 14 years later, it's the most pretentious title I've ever laid eyes on, but I'm going to own it because essentially Revolution Inspired self evolution. There's like a, there's like a flow to it which I appreciate. There's a rhythm to it that I appreciate.

But essentially it means like, you know, if you want to, in order to make great change externally, you have to make great change internally, you know, be the change you want to see in the world. And part of that is having and cultivating awareness. So that is like my message of the importance of awareness.

I, I'm working on a Follow up to 2012 and again, hopefully it won't take 12 years to, to write.

I don't think it needs to be very long, but it's kind of like my philosophical observation on the importance of the awareness and how that helps us in our mental health, how to navigate our mental health through awareness.

Because the one thing that I've noticed is that helping a society, the individuals of the society of a society cultivate awareness is not really high on. It's not really high on the list of, you know, organizing our society.

Foreign we're not taught it in school, we're not taught it in, in the workplace. The way that you come to, I mean a lot of people can come to like expanding their awareness on a couple different levels.

You're either born with a great sense of awareness and self awareness and social awareness and spatial awareness. You're just kind of like born with it. Other people like it comes along the way in their journey, but like to intentionally like create it.

That usually happens under two Paths.

And one is you've suffered a trauma and a grief and, and you go, you, you, you, you finally realize that you need some help other than what your friends and family and circle of influence can provide. So you seek that out in some fashion, some. For me it was therapy. And then so you go through this journey of self awareness for others.

It's like as simple as I need a humanities credit for my major. And so you just wander into a philosophy or mythology class and have your mind blown for three months.

And then that kind of like creates this new space in your consciousness to seek out your own individualistic purpose and how to like, understand yourself and who you are and what your place is in this world. But to me, awareness is the only game in town.

And back in my early 20s, I used to think that, you know, the reason why the people in power, you know, don't advocate for, you know, an individual to cultivate their, their awareness was due to nefarious purposes. It was back in my tinfoil hat wearing days.

Now I think it just stands, it comes from more of a place of neglect and ignorance because you have an entire society of, of people that have a great lacking of awareness, teaching the next generation how to exist in this world. To me, if you are, if one of your great skills on this planet is alienating people, there's still one person that you're stuck with, and that's you.

You're stuck with. You cradle the grave. So it's important that you learn who you are.

And when I talk about awareness, I think being aware is to challenge not the, you know, the truths of reality, but to challenge every single institution that conditions. So who are you outside of state? Who are you outside of lineage? Who are you outside of faith?

Who are you outside of gender, sexual orientation, able bodiedness, race? Like, who are you on a fundamental level? And only you can write the game plan on how to navigate those questions.

Nobody else can do it for you because you are uniquely you.

And you know, if you're not trying to figure out who you are, what you want from life, you're gonna have an entire world trying to tell you who you are, who you should be and what you should be trying to do in life. So to me, awareness is the only game in town. And I can only speak for the society in which I live in, because I've never lived in any other society.

We are shockingly an unaware culture. And I think that that, that isn't the only reason why we have such horrible mental health and suicidal epidemic. But it Definitely contributes to it.

I agree with that. I agree with that.

I think communities, society in general, and the communities that we belong in and organizations should have a better opportunity for support for mental health all the way around. I think that it, you know, in the, in the old days, it was something you didn't speak about.

Then we started speaking about it, but then it's still something you're not supposed. Supposed to talk about or, you know, if you. You mention it in any form or any way, you know, then you kind of, kind of pushed aside a little bit.

So, yeah, I think that our communities, society in general, the organizations that we are part of, need a better support system for people with mental health.

Agreed, Agreed.

I do that.

And just for development. True. Like, true development. Like, I. If I ever had a legacy, because I'm not gonna have children. I'm 47, I don't have any. And I.

I mean, working with kids for 16 years is probably like the greatest birth control I ever had. I also. Speaking of awareness, I know I'm pretty selfish when it comes to, like, the things that I like to do.

And when you have a child, it's not about you anymore. It's about them.

And it never stops.

Yeah. Yeah.

If there was any legacy that I would leave behind, I would hope that I could somehow contribute to, you know, creating a curriculum that goes from like first grade to 12th grade of how to understand yourself, how to navigate yourself, know why you respond and react to things in a certain way, and. And how to expand your awareness. Because it's not just self awareness, it's spatial awareness. It's social awareness.

You know, I like, I look at this meat suit as an avatar. Its character's name is Thomas. It's.

It happens to be Anglo Saxon, it happens to be heterosexual, and it happens to have been born and a citizen of the United States. That's my avatar. Who I am is not that. What I am is not that.

Thomas is connected to the ego structure that I feel that my true self filters through and expresses in this world.

And with social awareness, it's a seed of people that don't look like me, that have completely different upbringings than me, and try to have an understanding of their condition in life.

And knowing that because of my filter and because of my avatar, I may never truly understand what it is to live in their avatar and how the world sees and sees them.

So I think that true awareness, a true practice of awareness, not only helps you create empathy and compassion for yourself, which is important, but it also helps you to create empathy and compassion for others. And I think that we should always err on with strong boundaries because you don't want to let people step on you.

But I think it's all more important to err on the side of empathy and compassion.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Profound statement.

I always ask at the end of the show if there's one more thing and words of wisdom, and you may have just said that, but I'm gonna ask you.

I got one for you.

Yeah, I'm asking you anyway. Well, we're not there yet. We're not there yet. Okay, almost. Hold it. Hold that thought.

Okay, let's tell everybody how to get a hold of you, your book and your brilliant podcast that you share as well. So not only are you doing it in written word, you're inspiring people with vocal and speech and word as well.

Inner Monologue is more of like a past project that I still have available because I think that the majority of the conversations that I have, that's a conversational interview piece. I think the. The majority of the conversations is over 300. Maybe not my opening monologues, because those are more.

Those are more, you know, of the moment where the conversations are timely. Stages is, is a. Is a show that. It's kind of like more of a diary. It's something that was born out of the.

I lost my mom to cancer back in May of 2023, and I'm the caretaker of my father.

And so it's kind of like just talking about being middle aged and, and navigating, you know, what it's like to be a single child with an aging parent. And then of course, 2012, a bicycle odyssey. That's my book about the bike ride across the country. All of these. The links can be found in our.

My website, rise phoenix.org and I'll make.

Sure that all of those are in the show notes so people can just, you know, click it and click it and get there. You also have an Instagram which also shows on the screen, but somebody can find you on Instagram as well and follow you.

Yeah, that's all. All my social media is also on the website as well.

Well, this has been an amazing conversation. I wish we could talk for like another hour. I think we could easily fit so much more into it. You'll have to come back and talk again.

I would love to. Thank you.

It's been, this has been amazing. I appreciate what an amazing journey that your life has taken. I think in a very proactive way. I do have one Question, though.

You rode all the way to New York. Did you, did you write it back or did you, how'd you get back?

We had a support vehicle.

Oh, it was, it was important to have a support vehicle because my, my cycling buddy got injured and we would, we do a lot of rotating and one person would drive the support vehicle, the other person would ride the bike. He got injured in Charlotte? No, in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And I pretty much rode by myself.

From Charlotte, from Chapel Hill, North Carolina, all the way until like the last 50 miles of the bike ride. So it's a 7,000 mile journey, but we both don't have 7,000 miles under our belt. I have about 4,000, 4,500 and he's got about 25 to 3,000.

Wow. That's still amazing. That's still amazing. Kudos for both of you for doing. Thank you individuals.

Thank you to everyone that supported you along the way. If you hear this, Yes, I think that, you know, super grateful. Yeah, wonderful individuals to help you along the way. We're at the end.

So again, thank you for being here. Thank you for being a guest. This is one more thing before you go. Do you have any words of wisdom you can share?

Know thyself, Know Thyself are brilliant words of wisdom. Short, sweet, right to the point and exactly what we everybody needs. So, Thomas, again, thank you very much for reaching out.

Thank you very much for coming on the show. I really appreciate your journey, what you contribute to the world. I hope that we've been able to inspire, motivate and educate some people today.

Ditto.

Ditto is a good word too.

I will make sure that everything is in the show notes so that if they'll find you in a very easy way for everyone else out there in the one more thing before you go community, thank you very much for being part of the community. Please subscribe, follow, remember, write a review and we will see you next week. One more thing before you all go. Have a great day.

Have a great weekend. Thank you for being here. Thanks for listening to this episode of One More Thing before you go.

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